Very multiway here like 4-5 callers in your typical 1/3 game, my bettingrange would be very very strong as a default. Just because of how strong other players ranges combined would naturally look like, when its 4 or even 5 other hand combos in the mix. Also the pot is ballooning up quickly in sheer size and thus difficult to control- if we bet 60 on the flop like OP did and get callers- now we are suddenly finding ourself in stackoff decision land on the turn/river before we even know it. Keeping the potsize manageable when we have a weak hand with very little to none improvement cards on future streets like red AA is on this board against 5 other players, is one of our primary objectives here imo. Its nothing wrong with thinking unless i get to showdown very cheaply, i am done with this pot when you see this flop come down very multiway.

All sets is falling naturally in our bettingrange in my opinion. We destroy all pairs with a club combos, as they are dead to a club with two pair/trips "outs" is no longer winning cards for them. Also we are in pretty decent shape with our boat outs, if we should face worst case scenario and be up against a flopped flush.

We can also bet our strong overpairs with a club with a modest sizing as well including jacks, because now we have alot more equity to fall back on and therefore we have alot more playability on future streets.

My Ax club combos is also very decent betting candidates (obviously we mix it up with those with betting some portion of the time and checking some portion of the time), as we are drawing to the nutz.

The problem isnt that we cant get value from worse hands in callingranges some portion of the time. The problem(s) is that we gonna get ourself in trouble alot by building a bigger pot with a hand that is capped to one pair now on a flushy board, and have basically no chance of improving on later streets.

5 other hands is _alot_ of cards, especially when we have red AA with all clubs being out there.

Even if a villain who continues against a flop bet from us have something like Q10, top pair with the Q clubs- we are not that big of a fav, so its an illusion that it is alot of value to be had.

Put on top that we are facing stackoff territory on the turn and have no idea if we are beat already by a set,flopped flush, funky 2 pair or if our opponent needs another club/two pair/trips, i think its very debateable how much "value" we really gain longterm by betting in this particular spot.

Bolded is exactly right. Sure, we could be ahead and could bet all three streets and win. But that is very unlikely and I am focused much more on not putting a ton more $$ in this pot right now given how the board came out and the # of opponents we have.

There are times to try and get max value with AA postflop....this is definitely not one of them.

My guess is that you're going to get yourself into way more troublesome spots in 5way raised pots (which handcuff your postflop options due to pot commitment issues arising almost immediately) than your are 5way limped. So I'd do something preflop.

Flop/turn questions are why. In a limped pot, whatever, we have lots of room to bet/fold when we're told we're no good, and if we make a mistake, whatever, it's a small limped pot. Here, can we even bet/fold with these stacks? And we better not be making any mistakes, cuz they will be incredibly costly (the only mistakes worth considering really).

ETA: I mean, look at this spot, where you have solid posters on each side arguing from everything to betting the flop towards getting it in all the way to passively not even betting the flop as well as everything in between. This is likely the only hand that will matter in your session, and yet lots of different people are doing things very differently postflop. What if we're good on the flop? Letting someone draw for nothing in a huge pot is a massive mistake. What if we're behind on the flop? Working towards commitment or getting in a bunch of our stack is also a huge mistake. And yet thanks to preflop handcuffing ourselves (when we're not fine handcuffing ourselves), we're kinda in a gross spot because we don't have the time / streets to figure things out before stacks are all in (having gotten in a mere 5% of them preflop).

GcluelessNLnoobG

did I read that correctly/are you trolling?

I'm saying I'd much rather be in a 5way limped pot here than the spot we ended up in. Course, those aren't our only two options, so I'd do something different preflop. If blinds are aggro, we could attempt overlimping the Button (obviously risky with only 2 players left who can raise). Or we could simply raise a lot more to thin the field and make this spot more playable thanks to fewer callers resulting in a more manageable SPR.

I mean, we're just in such a gross spot right now where we are on the verge of making a massive mistake in some regards (and advice on this hand postflop is all over the map, which to me proves how difficult a spot it is), all simply because we were dealt AA.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Ok I hear ya now

To GGs point, in this spot preflop Id be making it $30-$35 every time. Not just with AA though. With any hand I raised.

This, so much this.

I suspect the postflop dynamic is vastly different if we bet more preflop. In which case we likely have a much different SPR, one with a little more wiggle room.

I think AP I can definitely understand the case for checking back the flop, and it is something ive been considering a lot. My snap instinct was ~PSB after it checks through to me, with a 2nd barrel ott after V check/call's the flop, then checks the turn, as I would think we'd be hearing from a lot of V's value range ott unless they slowplay often.

It's kinda sounding like maybe that's spew though :thinking_face:

I just make a ton of money as the PFRer in position on monotone boards, even with air. I can't tell you how often I've potted the flop, got a c/c, 2/3 potted turn, and then shoved a brick river to get a fold, but it's easily enough to pay for the times I've potted flop and had to fold to a c/r and or value towned myself. And the times I actually do have the NFD and they have a worse flush/draw... money.

I'm not saying that it's low variance and guaranteed money, but I've found it very profitable, especially with my semi-OMC image.

Look Garick, it seems to me like you are mixing apples and oranges here in a huge box. You have to look at these concepts in different ways, because they arent the same. We lose clarity in my opinion when we mix these issues together. We want to adjust and exploit our tight image (or whatever kind of image you have), but on the other hand it doesent mean we should start over C betting or overbluffing with too many combos of our range. I mean, we are looking to exploit other players and the leaks they have- we have to be careful so we dont create a new leak for ourself instead in the process.

1) I totally agree with you on the general strategy adjustment to take advantage of fold equity if you have a semi tight OMC ish image. I have a very tight reputation/image too in my most common underground game ( a somewhat natural effect because everybody else is playing an absurd amount of hands calling preflop raises, so in comparison i get the rock image quickly), wich i constantly is looking for ways to exploit. That means well timed light 3 bets pre and C-bet flop with absurd amounts of fold equity, check-raises or shoves postflop with semibluffs and so on. It seems like you also is doing that, wich is great for your game and overall strategy approach.

2) However, looking at this particular spot discussed ITT we are gonna have way way too many light bets/semi bluffs that cant stand a stackoff/ or any heat- or whatever you wanna call it if we start to bet this flop with such weak parts of our range like red AA into 5 other people here. As mentioned in my earlier post ITT, we will have plenty of other hand combos we can comfortably and profitably continue with.We cant really stackoff profitably here against any reasonable continuerange in a 6 way multiway raised pot, so why are we even betting this flop to begin with? The answer is pretty simple for many players: they are just uncertain what to do with a hand like red AA on this flop very multiway, and they are also unsure of how often they should bet/continue in this spot and with how many hands/what kind of hands. So it really ends up being a form of buttonclicking (C betting flop because we dont really know what else to do).

I agree pre-flop should have been a much bigger raise. I'm also in the check flop/evaluate camp, FWIW.

Yes we are in a gross spot probably because of our preflop raise size, but would be in any less of a gross spot if we HAD raised to $35 and gotten 5 callers? So let's deal with that problem. I think we should do that by deciding which of the two mistakes are worse. Losing your stack to a made flush or a draw that comes in, or losing potential value but protecting your stack at the same time? For me, I'd choose the latter because I like money. If gamble > money, then blast away but I doubt it's +EV on this flop with 5 other players. As someone else said, that's a lot of hands out there and we have virtually no way to improve.

So should we have a zero betting range on this flop?

There have been many discussions in this forum on why we don't need to worry about balancing ranges at LLSNL.

I don't think anyone is arguing for an empty betting range on monotone boards 6 ways. I'm betting flopped flushes, sets, and straights but probably not much else. I'm not including pairs, even AA, that may already be drawing dead, in that range.

I have nowhere ITT argued that we should have a non excisting C-bettingrange in this spot, so the answer is clearly no from me. And as Koko mentioned above me here, its my impression that nobody else have argued for that either.

And regarding to if that range should be unbalanced towards a nutted range or not: all i am arguing is that the one fact that we are 6-ways to the flop here, that fact alone as a natural consuequence is narrowing down our profitable bettingrange considerably. We just dont have alot of room to bluff/bet the weaker parts of our range here, because then we will get destroyed by our 5 opponents combined equity wich they will continue with on this board.

Meh, I was a couple of beers in when I posted my last, so it may have sounded like I was advocating blasting away with ATC. Not so. I'm just saying that the situation is profitable enough that I would include strong over pairs and naked Ac in my blasting range. Everyone seems to agree that sets are a bet here. Well AA is just below bottom set. Sure, bottom set has more outs to improve if it's not already good, but because of that it's also harder to fold if someone starts getting aggro.

I tend to think we become super exploitable if we're only betting strong hands here, regardless if you say we dont need to balance.

ok fair most Vs are terrible, but look at all the people itt that G is going to fold out bc they assume we should only be betting the top of our value range. Plus our hand could actually be best.

Especially since small made flushes and sets are less likely to check through in a 6way pot here. Plus I suspect we're going to fold out much of the weaker hands that beat us when we cbet and almost certainly when V c/c flop and checks turn and we barrel.

Like, out of all the hands we're scared of getting pwned with, how many are checking through otf in a 6way pot?

AA has 2.8% equity vs. flopped flushes whereas 44 has 34.4%. That's why I'm betting one and checking the other.

People who say we dont need to be balanced also think 10+BB/hr is unrealistic. If youre happy with 6-7BB thats fine. Im not.

How many flopped flushes are checking through otf 6ways?

I could have written an essay or lexicon on this topic, but that have to be a discussion in another thread/occasion because i dont have the time to go into depth on that as of now. Let me just start off with pointing out that this is a very common self levelling exercise, to tweak your LLSNL approach due to "i can easily become exploited if i do X type of play in X type of spots".

Surprise: maybe 1-2 percent of a typical 1/3 playerpool is capable of actually 1) observing and crack the code that we are only betting a strong range in this particular spot with very few bluffs and also 2) actually think of adequate exploitative adjustments in 5-6 ways very multiway pots- and incorporate those in their actual game at the table.

To sum it up in a short post: you are creating a problem that dont really excist.

Maybe, fair enougb Gil.

@trucci, let's do an exercise bc im prob missing something...what are the ranges of our Vs on this board given pre and flop action?

Every A combo. LLSNL players love to slowplay flopped flushes.

And this represents the majority of the weight of their range otf?

That's 12 combos out of _all_ their possible combos that would check through this flop. Like, that represents such a small percentage of their overall range.