10 handed 1/3

V1 - he just sat down in the last 30 minutes. Young white guy.
V2 - I've been playing with him for ~ 4 hours. 30s white guy, fairly active, bluffing post but no 3 bets pre. I should have a tight to very tight image as I was card dead in the first 2 hours or so but I have opened 4 hands in the last orbit. Lost the last one after double barrelling/giving up on river.

H (utg+1) - raise 15 w/ AsAc
V1 (mp) - comments "you just raise everything don't you" (thank you), calls
V2 (hj) - 3bets to 45. His first 3bet in 4 hours
H - I decided to flat in order to bring in V1, V1 calls.

I rarely rarely "slow play" aces, but this seemed like a good spot with only one (likely) caller possible.

Flop ($135) 972r
H - ?

On this drier than dry board, is this a good spot to bet ~ 1/3 pot to look weakish? I would bet that amount all day in position, but I was unsure how this small of a bet would be perceived from oop after flatting the flop. I didn't want to continue to slow play by checking and keeping the pot small. Betting 1/2 or more seems like a bit of an overplay, unless V2 had QQ/KK in which case any bet is likely to get called or raised.

Thoughts?

Stack sizes?

With really small effective check/shove is likely best. With medium stacks check/call the flop by default but a donk bet to mix it up isn't bad. With really deep stacks check/call simply for pot control becomes best.

Stack sizes?

Just raise pre and forget about caller who you don't even have position on. As played, now check to pre-flop aggressor who given what you said likely has a premium pair, and is likely to bet, and then just raise, and don't get fancy again and call.

Sorry, stack sizes were about $220 for V2, $300 for V1, $350 for H

idk why you wanna slowplay vs a tight 3 bettor. Just 4bet pre and try to stack him.

for those stack sizes, C/shoving that flop all day.

/thread

Pretty easy 4 bet given your image for the last orbit, makes it a lot easier to play post flop

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this. but lol at flatting the 3b

Fact that you omitted stack sizes, and flatted flop. Tells me your priorities are in wrong places.

SPR of 2.

Why on earth do you want to trap pre. Then donk flop? If he folds even 5% of time that is a tragedy.

+1

This is the dream and it seems likely 3 bettor will continue for 120 at a near 100% frequency. 255 in the middle HU sounds a lot better than 135 3 ways.

Ya it seems like everyone wants to do the old man 4 bet or old man check raise because they're concerned that if they play their strong hands strong, that their opponents will all become superhero folders, so their solution is call one street, donk the next and hope the other guy is confused.

Like bad players don't hero fold at nearly the frequency that people who concern themselves about it think, and if they do, the exploit is to bluff more, not to stop 4 betting.

I would usually limp in here but then again I'd expect to get 3bet like 0% of the time.

I don't hate the flat. Entices V1 to put in 1/6 of his stack which will be a big mistake no matter how it plays out. But I might just lean to the straightforward 4bet. V2 isn't going to fold AK preflop but will manage a fold on a whiffed flop (especially 3ways), and ditto for some other hands (perhaps QQ/JJ, especially on A/K/etc. flops). If V2 is capable of reading a live 4bet for exactly what it is and folding QQ- at this non-deep stack depth then ok.

SPR is < 2 against both opponents so obviously we can get in stacks whenever we want and we're never folding. That said, the board is about as non-scary as it can be so I probably just donk out before some potential overcards come to kill action. I'd be totally cool with a weak look stabbing bet of no more than $50, which I'm hoping will entice some money out of V1 before V2 perhaps goes after the pot.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I hear this advice a lot, but at small stack depths almost any light raising (let alone light 3betting or 4betting) is mostly suicide. It simply gets you into far too many situations where you're piling in money with the worst of it just to protect against the very rare situations we face here.

GimoG

Ya perhaps. But we never know if we have the opportunity to make cheap bluffs if we don't make obvious value raises. Either way, the exploit isn't to "not scare the customer".


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Okay, so why lay trap preflop. Then donk on this flop. Why not check? Why give guy a chance to fold?

You also donking AK on this flop?

We have a tight image and open in EP, then the guy who hasn't 3bet in 4 hours decides to squeeze. This guy is never folding, I'm happy to just get stacks in now. I 4bet, either making it a smidge over $100 or shoving.

AP I x/shove. That said I don't hate a donk if you think it will be read as 'I haz top pair/weak overpair, plz don't raise' which is a line I would expect from older recs and bad reg players.

Donking is better (imo) because it guarantees some money into the pot before a potential scare turn card, plus it sandwiches V1 into the mix, plus if we bet weakly enough it allows active V2 to attempt a steal from what looks like us on a mediocre pair. V2 isn't guaranteed to bet this flop if he's whiffed; it's a pretty different dynamic that cbetting 3way in raised pot than it is in a 3bet pot where not one but two opponents called; but he might be enticed to steal if he's given the correct signals.

GcluelessNLnoobG

What would you do with a pair of nines on this flop? Do that.

Non of this. Nit leading into pot. Puts my radar on high. Your still stacking my QQ, KK, JJ (maybe).

But I am folding all non paired hands. You get zero extra money and miss out on likely cbet

If you are just flatting the three bet pre flop, I see zero point in leading this flop. If V2's 3 bet range is super thin, he's gotta have AA-QQ, AK. In that case, I don't see why he wouldn't c-bet the flop when checked to him as most people are c-betting their 3 bets to begin with, unless he has AK.

If he has AK, depending on the type of player he is, he might just fold if you lead. What I am trying to get at is that if you lead you could potentially be getting him to fold the one non-pair hand that he otherwise would likely c-bet.

On top of that, if you lead for 1/3, you may just get called, when his c-bet would likely be 1/2 pot or more and would effectively be losing value. Your flat pre flop, considering the description of you, would likely set off alarms, so if you're leading the flop he's probably not raising.

Easiest check ever, wait to see the sizing before deciding whether xc or xr is better

this but mostly c/r. ignore gobble once again.

One thing I've learned playing 1/2NL for a long time is that 3-bets are obscenely rare, and almost always signify a hand they are willing to go to the felt with. I'm not sure the last time I have seen a 3-bet/fold at 1/2. Sure, at 2/5 it happens some, because there is more light 3-betting going on, but at 1/2 or 1/3, it's rare. If you are lucky enough to be in a spot where your AA gets 3-bet, for the love of god put in the 4th bet. You will get called almost always.

So you want to trap pre and then not trap post when you get the most absolute bone dry flop of all time?

I like a 4bet here as a default... given the set up I like it even more. Especially if villain has a hand like KK-JJ let’s get the chips in before an over card comes and he finds a reason to fold.