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Old 08-22-2015, 01:10 AM   #1
WRH
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1/3 AA facing heat OTF

Hero is a young-looking early 30's white guy. Currently stuck due to getting check-called early by AK when the A hit on the river (beat my top pair and then he took off for a tournament but that's another story).

V1 is a late 60's spazz white man of foreign descent. I've seen him raise to $20, get three callers and then jam $350 on a K-high flop, then show top set and explain "I have to get the flush draws out."

V2 is a generic drooler, not relevant past the pre-flop dead money contribution.

Hero ($500) - UTG raises AA to $15 (my standard raise in this game)
V1($215) - MP calls
V2 (? Can't remember) - CO calls

Flop ($49) KQ4

Hero bets $25
V1 quickly raises (with both hands) to $75

Hero?

V's range before the flop is any Broadway and any pocket pair. Possibly some suited hands that might have flopped a draw. KQ is definitely possible of course. AK is possible too. I believe he would have put in a raise with KK or QQ before the flop.
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Old 08-22-2015, 01:31 AM   #2
wj94
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Re: 1/3 AA facing heat OTF

Easiest shove of all time. I assume V2 folded? Sorry you lost.
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Old 08-22-2015, 01:41 AM   #3
quemado
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Re: 1/3 AA facing heat OTF

What wj94 says. You have top pair and a back door flush and straight draw.
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Old 08-22-2015, 02:08 AM   #4
WRH
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Re: 1/3 AA facing heat OTF

Yes, V2 folded. Do you believe I'm ahead of Vs range here, or does the backdoor flush and straight draws add enough equity to make up for the times I'm behind?
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Old 08-22-2015, 02:18 AM   #5
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Re: 1/3 AA facing heat OTF

Once he raises, I think the worst he shows up with is pair+FD. I don't see old men raising with naked flush draws. Open ended I doubt hes raising as well. I think the most common hand we'll see is AK. I see old men just call pre with AK all the time. I think I call and evaluate on the turn, which I know isn't the most +EV but I like low variance. A smooth call lets him know we are serious, and its very likely we have AA KK or QQ trying to trap him. A turn bet by him is gonna be heavily nutted, but if it goes check/check i'm calling basically every river bet.

edit ~ if turn bricks & he shoves i'm folding and feel pretty confident about it.
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Old 08-22-2015, 08:58 PM   #6
Steve00007
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Re: 1/3 AA facing heat OTF

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Originally Posted by WRH View Post
Yes, V2 folded. Do you believe I'm ahead of Vs range here, or does the backdoor flush and straight draws add enough equity to make up for the times I'm behind?
If he doesn't have at least QQ here you're about even with him. If he has QQ then he has a small edge. Either way there is already $149 in the pot and he only has $125 after his raise. You don't need to be at least 50% to win with the money that's already in there. Shoving is clearly the correct play.
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Old 08-22-2015, 10:14 PM   #7
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Re: 1/3 AA facing heat OTF

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Originally Posted by nuts99 View Post
Once he raises, I think the worst he shows up with is pair+FD. I don't see old men raising with naked flush draws. Open ended I doubt hes raising as well. I think the most common hand we'll see is AK. I see old men just call pre with AK all the time. I think I call and evaluate on the turn, which I know isn't the most +EV but I like low variance. A smooth call lets him know we are serious, and its very likely we have AA KK or QQ trying to trap him. A turn bet by him is gonna be heavily nutted, but if it goes check/check i'm calling basically every river bet.

edit ~ if turn bricks & he shoves i'm folding and feel pretty confident about it.
At these effective stack sizes, calling the flop raise and then folding at any point would be terribad.
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Old 08-24-2015, 11:50 AM   #8
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3 AA facing heat OTF

I'd more tailor my raises to stack sizes to setup good SPRs if possible rather than a standard $15. For example, if all stacks are as big as V1's $200ish then a raise to $20 makes stacking off postflop so much easier.

As played, SPR is 4 on a very drawy board. I don't love that we've given implied odds of ~15 to V1 (a raise to $20 preflop would have knocked that down to a much more reasonable ~11). But I would just grit my teeth and stack off with 2 PSBs. So I pot the flop. I don't like the small bet at all; it'll create a $100 HU pot with an awkward $175 left on the turn, so then what?

We obviously don't love facing the raise, but I felt committed as soon as we raised preflop with these stacks. I shove.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 08-24-2015, 12:37 PM   #9
Javanewt
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Re: 1/3 AA facing heat OTF

Just gii for reasons stated. Folding is way too nitty, and you can't just call (bad) -- unless it's to keep him in knowing you are shoving any turn, but I'd rather just shove now.
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Old 08-24-2015, 03:29 PM   #10
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Re: 1/3 AA facing heat OTF

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
I'd more tailor my raises to stack sizes to setup good SPRs if possible rather than a standard $15. For example, if all stacks are as big as V1's $200ish then a raise to $20 makes stacking off postflop so much easier.

As played, SPR is 4 on a very drawy board. I don't love that we've given implied odds of ~15 to V1 (a raise to $20 preflop would have knocked that down to a much more reasonable ~11). But I would just grit my teeth and stack off with 2 PSBs. So I pot the flop. I don't like the small bet at all; it'll create a $100 HU pot with an awkward $175 left on the turn, so then what?

We obviously don't love facing the raise, but I felt committed as soon as we raised preflop with these stacks. I shove.

GcluelessNLnoobG
Do even UTG you'd make it $20?
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Old 08-24-2015, 05:25 PM   #11
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Re: 1/3 AA facing heat OTF

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Do even UTG you'd make it $20?
Why not? We made it $15 and got 2 callers; is it totally unreasonable to think a $20 open doesn't have an ok chance at getting us at least one caller?

Just try it and see, you might be surprised at how big of raises can be called. Yesterday, I limped in with AQo in EP in my 1/3 NL game. A loose guy opens to $15 and gets 3 calls. I make it $80 with a $300 stack. Do you know how many callers my limp/reraise got?

G3callers;peopledon'tcometothecasinotofoldpreflopG
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Old 08-24-2015, 05:50 PM   #12
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Re: 1/3 AA facing heat OTF

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Originally Posted by DrChesspain View Post
At these effective stack sizes, calling the flop raise and then folding at any point would be terribad.
+1

As others have said, time to shove. Calling doesn't accomplish anything good.
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:36 PM   #13
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Re: 1/3 AA facing heat OTF

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Why not? We made it $15 and got 2 callers; is it totally unreasonable to think a $20 open doesn't have an ok chance at getting us at least one caller?

Just try it and see, you might be surprised at how big of raises can be called. Yesterday, I limped in with AQo in EP in my 1/3 NL game. A loose guy opens to $15 and gets 3 calls. I make it $80 with a $300 stack. Do you know how many callers my limp/reraise got?

G3callers;peopledon'tcometothecasinotofoldpreflopG
I don't doubt it, I was just curious. I've been experimenting with different raise sizes.
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:46 PM   #14
6betfold
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Re: 1/3 AA facing heat OTF

Having the A heavily discounts flush draws being in V's range unless he has something like JTdd, J9dd. That leaves us with KQ/QQ/AK/44 and KK sometimes. Since we've got two aces, he has far more combos of 2p and sets than AK imo. I don't see how we can be good often here. We constantly talk about bet/fold, bet/fold, bet/fold.. the only problem here is that we're too shallow so we don't really mind gii but expect to lose pretty often.

Also, bet bigger on the flop. ~35.
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Old 08-25-2015, 11:30 AM   #15
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Re: 1/3 AA facing heat OTF

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Originally Posted by 6betfold View Post
Also, bet bigger on the flop. ~35.
Even $35 is a poor bet size, imo. This will create a $120 pot with just $165 left on the turn on a very drawy board. Then what? Are we overshoving for 1.4 PSB? Or betting 3/4 PSB on turn which then leaves us with a lol "same bet" of $85 into $280 on the river (a lol 1/3 PSB, where we'll also never be able to fold even if the worst card flops).

GSPRtellsuswhatourbetsizingshouldbe,imoG
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Old 08-25-2015, 01:20 PM   #16
suited fours
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Re: 1/3 AA facing heat OTF

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Even $35 is a poor bet size, imo. This will create a $120 pot with just $165 left on the turn on a very drawy board. Then what? Are we overshoving for 1.4 PSB? Or betting 3/4 PSB on turn which then leaves us with a lol "same bet" of $85 into $280 on the river (a lol 1/3 PSB, where we'll also never be able to fold even if the worst card flops).

GSPRtellsuswhatourbetsizingshouldbe,imoG
We don't know V2's stack size, so incomplete information on the question. I want to bet at least enough so that chasing a 5 outer is a clear error, but often much more. It depends .
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Old 08-25-2015, 02:45 PM   #17
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3 AA facing heat OTF

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Originally Posted by suited fours View Post
We don't know V2's stack size
This is a good point. V2s stack size could totally change our bet size / line. FWIW, I'm assuming it is <= V1's stack size, but this is a pretty big assumption.

GcluelessstacksizenoobG
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Old 08-25-2015, 03:25 PM   #18
WRH
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Re: 1/3 AA facing heat OTF

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
This is a good point. V2s stack size could totally change our bet size / line. FWIW, I'm assuming it is <= V1's stack size, but this is a pretty big assumption.

GcluelessstacksizenoobG
If I recall correctly, V2 had less than V1. Sorry, it was a long session, I can't quite remember.
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Old 08-25-2015, 04:18 PM   #19
DonkSlayar
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Re: 1/3 AA facing heat OTF

No brainer, All in. What's to think about, you must of lost and are overthinking.
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Old 08-25-2015, 05:02 PM   #20
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Re: 1/3 AA facing heat OTF

I'd probably call. His raising range is probably AK(6 combos), KQ, (6 combos) and 44 (3 combos) and JdTd. You are slightly ahead of the JT. If you reraise, as many suggest, you are putting in 170 to win 280 as a 2 to 3 dog which is still a money winner.

Preflop, the SPR was 4 so you weren't pot committed. Reraising might be bad because you might get worse hands and bluffs to fold whereas if you call, if you are ahead you will win more. So basically call> shove > fold.

Last edited by bigmuff; 08-25-2015 at 05:10 PM.
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Old 08-25-2015, 06:09 PM   #21
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3 AA facing heat OTF

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the SPR was 4 so you weren't pot committed.
I would almost always consider myself committed in an SPR 4 pot 3ways.

GimoG
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