Hi,

Back in the live scene here.

UTG (300) opens in a 7 handed game to 12 (has been here two orbits and folded every hand)

H: covers 8d6d in BB

UTG raises to 12 cutoff calls button calls I call

(49) Flop: 2d 7d 3d

We lead for 20 (do u guys like this) to charge big diamonds.

V raises to 45 fold fold I call

(179) turn 8c I bet 85 he jams

What do u guys think?

I like this line from me in general

Fold preflop.

AP, call jam.

Calling seems kinda neutral I could get behind folding since not super deep

I think he could have AA or KK with a diamond a lot

Then call jam.

Fold pre OOP very easily.

Very easy call with a flush OTT on a non-paired board.

+3 to what everyone else said. Easy-peasy call.

+4. If you're calling 86s in the BB to a UTG raise, you're not running bad.

see bolded
easy fold pre

as played if you didn't like that flop what were you hoping for?

4 way seems priced in for a call.
4 way no three bettors I cant see past a call
isn't folding pre 7 handed a tad too tight?
also dream flop for this hand I smoke call that shove and oh well the flush over flush if that's where this variance train hits me.(that and saying why did I just stack off with a marginal hand OOP)

my thoughts pre flop

if we were on the button sure I might take a flyer once in a while and call pre.

if the 4x open was the cut-off and button, SB called then maybe 20% I call here pre from BB.

1st hand V played in 2 orbits and opens 4x UTG ?sure if I feel the need to Degen it up and gamble for my stack OOP (but why)

are we playing with a goal of making money or are we playing for the adrenaline rush of playing every hand and riding the roller coaster

The problem here isn't pre-flop. Just telling people to fold pf here is not good advice.

The problem is the donking everywhere post-flop. What other hands are you doing this with and what do you think it means when you don't bet?

Yeah I don’t really like folding pre when I close the action and have a playable hand.

Not a huge deal at all.

In regards to donking I’m not gonna play this “GTO” I can easily get value from Ad and Kd I’m targeting these hands specifically

couldn't disagree more

fold pre.


as played you look like a donkey calling OOP
so donk leading is perfect as V will put you on something like A7 or K7 or some other swill a donkey would call OOP with and then lead.
most fish will check a flopped flush here

No, it is a huge deal. Not at SABR's level, but at yours. Position matters a ton, especially when most everyone is just playing their hand strength. You are not deep and are facing and EP open.

Unlike snowman, I'd call this almost always OTB, not just 20%, but OOP, it's a turbo-fold at this level.

Why makes you think he has the Ad or Kd here?

I did some quick math, and if he's opening an extremely tight range (99+, ATs+, KQs, AQo+) he'll have an Ad or Kd only 20% of the time. He'll have a flush about 5% of the time.

If he's opening looser than that (almost everyone is) he'll have the Ad or Kd much less often than 20%, and he'll still have flushes a similar % of the time.

So makes you "target" these hands other than wishful thinking? That isn't how poker works.

This is nonsense. The BB is the position you should call most often from (as opposed to raising or folding).

I always hate advice like "you should fold pre-flop because you aren't skilled enough to play this." Well how is he/she supposed to get better if they're never in this spot?

you get better by exploiting your position and making money and watching others lose by playing / calling too many hands out of position.

calling a 4x raise from UTG while you are in the BB is overall a losing play.
will you hit a miracle flop once in a blue moon, sure.
like I said if you don't mind the roller coaster ride then call but in the long run its -EV.

BTW its 4 way pre
if you want to try and out flop and outplay UTG while being OOP that's one thing but you got 2 others to deal with in OP's post

I'd love to be in position every single hand, but if your strategy is to never play out of position I'm going to raise your blind 100% of the time. Good luck with that.

We aren't calling a UTG raise. We are completing for $9 into a $49 pot. This means that if we can realize 18% equity with a suited gapper that can make some nutted hands, calling pre-flop is better than folding. Math is hard yo.

What are your poker credentials that you know this to be -EV? Do you coach?

I hated the donk lead on the flop - goal should be to not go broke. Pre seems okay if Hero is aware it's edge-less 100bb deep.

One other option I like here at some frequency and against some V’s is 3b a PSB. There is $40-50 in pot unraked and you have the ability to cover a ton of board between a BB 3b range and your actual hand.

Don’t know if that’s a good move for you, your style, skill level, risk tolerance, V’s, etc., but I can certainly think of line-ups and spots where this would be my likely highest EV play. YMMV.

Pre is ok.

I like the flop donk actually. I expect UTG to check most of the time on this texture 4-ways and facing a bet from CO or BU is a bit awkward where a raise will blow out UTG’s 0 equity hands. All players have decent equity hands in their folding ranges like single higher diamonds that aren’t quite good enough to call. Most of the zero equity hands that fold don’t give action with any other lines anyway.

Turn donk is just clicking buttons. Should’ve 3-bet the flop and as played check turn. None of your range that bet/calls flop should want to bet a brick turn. .

Pre is borderline, definitely not terrible, the rest of the hand seems that way

your jumping to conclusions and using a sweeping blanket comment.

I don't sit in a $30-$60 mixed game and expect my opponents to play the same as opponents in a $1-2 NL game.
therefore I don't have the same game plan going in. Of course plans need to be tweaked based on table conditions and opponents.

I'm saying there's enough opportunity to make money and keep variance low without playing such hands OOP.

and as to your math your 18% perceived equity you think you have means there is 82% equity in your opponents hand excluding chopped pots of course.

Didn't grunch this for some reason.

Regarding preflop, I think overall we greatly overestimate our IO and greatly underestimate our RIO with hands like these, and being OOP hurts even more. I fold. But I'm also a huge nit.

SPR is 6 on the flop so stacks will be trivially in play by the river (perhaps even sooner). For better or worse, we're probably committed so long as the board doesn't run out stupid. We do risk scare cards killing our action. I don't think I hate any option, from donking small to induce, to donking large (a flush draw never folds the flop and may even happily shove), to even simply check/raising to get stacks in quicker. Whatever, although might depend a bit on our image.

Gwhatever,imoG

Overall, what do you think your average typical worse opponent would be better off doing against you when they're OOP and in the BB: calling (or continuing to) your raises or simply folding pretty much everything?

I think they'd be far better off folding (and actually don't think it's remotely close). Staying out of your way and simply getting into pots in position on worse players is how they're going to make their money at this table, not constantly getting into a dick measuring contest against a better player OOP due to fairly irrelevant preflop odds.

GknowingwheremymoneycomesfromG

They're better off calling at least some of the time instead of always folding.

I can't see your cards, I'm not going to win every time.

Or you can always fold and give me variance-free money. I love having nits at the table for this reason.