I have been at the table for about 2 hours, image at this point is pretty nitty. 4 players at this table with effective stacks of 650~, 800~, 1000~, 1300~. Lots of heavy raising PF with any two from any position. Trying to pick spots to battle these guys.

Villain: Probably the loosest at the table, has the $1000~ stack. In conversation, he told me he has ADD and can't play tight because it's too boring. Raised PF in EP 4 different times without ever looking at his cards. Shown down 74o, 10 3s, and other randoms. Hitting flops, turning flushes, it's his night.

Hero: Doubled up a few hands prior and sitting at about $725. Tight, but have been able to pick a up a few pots with some suited connectors that hit making sure the big loose stacks know I am not only playing premiums.

The hand....what do I do on the flop??

UTG+1 limps, MP limp, HJ (V) pops it to $20, folds to me in SB w/88 and I call, BB folds. UTG+1 calls, MP calls.

Pot: $78 after rake.

Flop: 536r
UTG+1 checks, MP checks, V quickly pushes $100. Hero?

Callers behind and with the hands V has shown in the past he could have any part of this board or a complete whiff. I tanked for a minute or two on this one simply because his range is practically the entire deck and I had no idea where I was.

Is this a call, raise or fold spot?

Thanks!

I initially and likely incorrectly check the flop BTW.

Just lead the flop for $40-50, folding is fine after V overbets. If they are playing this loose you will flop something eventually to stack them with. You might have the best hand now but still have to play two more streets in a huge pot OOP and raising is just a bluff unless they are stacking off with a 6 or straight draw, and even then you're not in great shape against their whole range that continues to bet/call past flop. You still have other players in the hand too.

I would not have thought of that-- leading the flop sounds pretty good in this spot, although you will have to play postflop for 3 streets against what sounds like a very tricky V.

I agree with folding as played for the reason wj94 said. As a noob who isn't a great post-flop player versus crazy villains like this, my rationale for flatting 88 preflop is that if we hit our set, villain is very likely to pay us off. Otherwise I'm giving up a lot postflop with this hand, versus this villain.

I think folding is fine here. If we call V is likely to bet most turn cards and unless we bink a set we aren't going to be happy.

I would fold pretty quickly if I was in this spot. If you were closing the action or HU, I think I would continue. You're pretty clearly ahead of V's range in this spot, but continuing would be a high variance play, and you'd have to check/call down pretty much all boards.

There are certainly better spots than this, so folding is fine if you don't have a second buy-in with you or if you're not fully rolled for the game.

I 3bet all day in this position and play poker. We crush his range and he's going to have you on a wildly different range than what you actually have.

As played, you have have an OP. Call and see the turn.

You're 3b 88 against a LAG OOP 240bb deep with no dead money between? Seems like a good way to put yourself in bad/thin spots while building a huge pot. IMO better to set mine 4 ways this deep.

I would rather c/r the flop than 3! preflop.

This was my line of thinking here. Unless I hit the set I did not think he would be slowing down on future streets. As a result I folded, the 2 players behind folded. V flipped over 56 for 2 pair.

Pre is fine...don't like playing an inflated pot against hyperLag player when he's deepstacked...have a feeling 3 betting him pre just isolates both of you and his range is still as wide as before.

I would be bet/folding flop for $40-$50...as played, folding is fine and look for a better opportunity to get V's money.

Agree with this. I'd probably raise flop rather than call vs this villain. There aren't many great turn cards for us and I'd expect this villain to continue to barrel. That being said, villain is repping a lot of strength. Whether he is actually strong or not is unclear but I'm not looking to play a huge pot OOP with mediocre holdings which is what 88 is here. We called because it was profitable to set-mine. We didn't flop a set and villain continues to show strength. Folding is best.

Against someone who is raising without looking at his cards, talking about ADD, etc. (i.e. looking for some action/gamble), 3betting preflop is for pure value as villian is going to likely raise/call with his entire opening range, which is super wide.

Regarding setmining - it's going to be harder than normal to realize your implied odds when hitting a set in your position relative to the likely postflop bettor (the action player) who you will have to act after immediately on all postflop betting rounds.

Well if this were a tournament, sure it would be for value and a no-brainer, but this is a cash game and now hero is going to be OOP and have no idea what to do on most flops since they will almost always have overcards. Are you just going to triple barrel most boards? Check/call down when you have no idea what V has? It's not like hero has 100bb and can just 3b/jam favorable flops.

What's your plan when you raise to $80 and the flop comes A-J-6? K-Q-9? K-2-3?

The plan is to play some postflop poker with an equity edge going into the flop. Different lines will be best for different board textures & vibes you get from watching your opponent act. Sometimes the best play will be to fold at some point, or c/c 1/2/3 streets, lead the flop, c/r the flop, etc.

Some boards will decrease 88's equity against a wide range, while others will increase the equity of the hand vs. the wide range.

At these types of tables, I play fairly nitty postflop, especially OOP. I just patiently wait for a hand and hope someone ships me a stack every few hours or so. With mediocre hands (such as just a weak overpair here) we really need to be in position before we can think of continuing with the hand since we might be able to pot control on later streets, see what others are going to do first, etc.

So here, especially OOP, I'd be setmining preflop, and we didn't hit a set on the flop, so I'm folding. ETA: I'd be more for donking this flop if players that had position on me are more ABC / not bluffy / etc., which doesn't sound like it is the situation here.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I thought I was going to be the only one to think this. I feel some people need to get more comfortable playing OOP if you think this is ALWAYS a snap call instead of a 3bet.

As played call flop.

That sounds nice but I would like to see how someone 3b this hand against this player plans on winning a bunch of money. Are you just going to bet $100 on the flop and give up if there are overcards? How many overcards is too many, 1, 2, 3? You're going to have some really s-hitty decisions to make if you 3b this pre with 240bb effective.

This is implying that we must win every 3bet pot which is not the case.

Are you just going to get it in for 240bb if the board is like 22657? K2257? giving up on ace high and king high boards? Like other than 567 or 8xx flops, exactly what boards do you plan on getting value with going to the flop with an SPR of 4-5 in a 3b pot?

It depends. For example, I would be comfortable bet/calling all-in on the flop in the OP against this opponent in this spot.

Seems pretty spewy IMO, but alright.

*grunch*

this is a 3b PF against LAG/spewy villain with EP limpers who are never folding to his open. I like going big here and making it $75 ($69 is a pot raise with the limps). reasons to 3b:
1. pure value: 88 is the favorite against all 4 players' ranges, and is a strong favorite heads up against villain's opening range.
2. hand is impossible to play OOP in a multi-way pot without initiative when you don't hit a set (89% of the time).
3. villain is likely to call with tons of worse and even dominated hands.
4. you describe your image as borderline nitty. a 3b/cbet line should get a lot of respect allowing you to play perfectly. likewise, villain prob never 4b you light.
5. instead of playing multi-way, you likely get the pots heads up, and if there is action from one of the EP limpers, alarm bells should go off in your head.
6. from a theoretical standpoint against LAG players, you should be 3b the small blind a lot more than calling. also you should generally increase your 3b frequency against players like villain to capitalize on his overly weak opening range.

if you 3b, this flop is a 100% cbet and you can evaluate based on villain's action. it's probably not a good spot to barrel off, though you might choose to look up villain some with a bluff-catcher when he continues.

as played, I think you have to c/f with 2 players behind and villain's sizing. small pockets and suited connectors are a decent part of both limpers' ranges, and you're setting yourself up to get value owned when villain has it.

you probably are best a lot, but it's unlikely he's just going to overbet and slow down, meaning you need to know he's just going to barrel off at a spewtastic frequency. unless you have a reason to think this is a spot to just buckle up and hold on, you've only put 20 in the pot and folding isn't terrible.

but yeah, 3b PF for sure.

ISOing villain with a hand that crushes his range and taking initiative >>>> set-mining with the likely best hand

in general 88 isn't a great hand to 3b, but against someone opening T3s and probably calling hero's raise nearly as light, we're leaving a lot on the table playing passively here.

what does a c/r on the flop actually accomplish? yes, we get him to fold his 6 outers, but he's already overbet them and given himself a terrible price (ie calling against these is already a big FTOP win) while I agree that we're ahead a significant majority of the time, villain CAN have big hands on the flop, and it would not surprise me to see this player make this kind of play with JJ+. furthermore, every hand that flopped big is squarely in villain's range both PF and given the flop overbet. given image and table dynamics, I would not be surprised if villain is pretty strong on this flop since he expects no one to believe him.

when we raise, there aren't really many worse hands we can expect villain to call with, and even if he does, we can't profitably continue betting. there also aren't any better hands we can expect to fold out. maybe TT/99 maybe but probably not.

so what you're saying is that we should pass up an opportunity to make a raise PF for value so that we can turn a weak overpair/2 outer into a bluff after villain has overbet the pot in position on the flop? no wonder villain is sitting on $1000.