Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-19-2018, 02:36 PM   #1
jimicornerstone
journeyman
 
jimicornerstone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 372
1/3 - 87s, flop trips

1/3 game on a weekend night. Main villain is fishy, splashy MAAG dressed for a night on the town, fancy jeans, button down, nice watch, etc. He has some grasp of the game, and is always talking about flushes on 2-tone boards. When people call his bets he keeps saying "you trying to buy it?" I assume, the way he thinks, they are trying to "buy" a flush by peeling. He is def. capable of bluffing, but haven't seen him do anything outrageous, such as....

OMC (UTG - $300) - opens to $12

Designer Jeans (EP - $500) - calls

Hero (B - covers) - calls with 87

FLOP ($35): 898

OMC bets $20

Villain calls relatively quickly

Hero raises to $80

OMC folds

Villian thinks for maybe 10-15 seconds and jams it all in there

Hero?
jimicornerstone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2018, 02:59 PM   #2
shorn7
veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,179
Re: 1/3 - 87s, flop trips

He's trying to buy it. Insta call.
shorn7 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2018, 03:02 PM   #3
Phil Me Up
journeyman
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 383
Re: 1/3 - 87s, flop trips

Tough spot. I think calling or folding are both defendable. Personally, I lean toward being nitty & folding readless, as A8/T8s+ are all possible, and we're only "happy" when villain has QJdd/JTdd, etc.
Phil Me Up is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2018, 03:09 PM   #4
Mr Spyutastic
Pooh-Bah
 
Mr Spyutastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Soul Read Blvd
Posts: 3,585
Re: 1/3 - 87s, flop trips

I don't see any answer here other than call.
I really need solid convincing history and read to deviate to a different choice being correct.
Mr Spyutastic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2018, 03:11 PM   #5
hitchens97
adept
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,103
Re: 1/3 - 87s, flop trips

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimicornerstone View Post
1/3 game on a weekend night. Main villain is fishy, splashy MAAG dressed for a night on the town, fancy jeans, button down, nice watch, etc. He has some grasp of the game, and is always talking about flushes on 2-tone boards. When people call his bets he keeps saying "you trying to buy it?" I assume, the way he thinks, they are trying to "buy" a flush by peeling. He is def. capable of bluffing, but haven't seen him do anything outrageous, such as....

OMC (UTG - $300) - opens to $12

Designer Jeans (EP - $500) - calls

Hero (B - covers) - calls with 87

FLOP ($35): 898

OMC bets $20

Villain calls relatively quickly

Hero raises to $80

OMC folds

Villian thinks for maybe 10-15 seconds and jams it all in there

Hero?
I think trips likely raises this wet flop, so I'd put him on 99, 98 or some big draw given the initial flat. If he does have 99 or 98, I don't see why he would not flat the second time. I think it smells more like a big draw. I call.

Last edited by hitchens97; 04-19-2018 at 03:26 PM.
hitchens97 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2018, 03:16 PM   #6
mdelore
journeyman
 
mdelore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 302
Re: 1/3 - 87s, flop trips

The backraise is so gross. Do you remember what he said about flushes on two tone boards? I guess you have to call now that you stuck in a third of your stack already.
mdelore is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2018, 03:27 PM   #7
Phil Me Up
journeyman
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 383
Re: 1/3 - 87s, flop trips

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdelore View Post
The backraise is so gross. Do you remember what he said about flushes on two tone boards? I guess you have to call now that you stuck in a third of your stack already.
20% is committed, not 33%, big difference. But I get what you're saying.

I can imagine maybe 7-8 FD vs 11 premiums, so we're probably around 30-35% equity, and pot odds are approximately 1.5:1, meaning this is arguably a fold if we don't default to simplistic logic like "were at the top of our range" or something similarly reductionist. Even if you add a couple combos of overplayed TT, it's still quite close.

I'm sure our plan was to try to commit vs the omc overpair range, but dynamics have changed.
Phil Me Up is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2018, 04:04 PM   #8
chopstick
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chopstick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: where the weather suits my clothes
Posts: 7,859
Re: 1/3 - 87s, flop trips

snap call, let him river the 7 so you both have something to be happy about.
chopstick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2018, 04:26 PM   #9
Minatorr
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,951
Re: 1/3 - 87s, flop trips

Uh, call?

Him calling fast OTF weights more of his range towards draws.
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2018, 07:14 PM   #10
NebDanger
grinder
 
NebDanger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 659
Re: 1/3 - 87s, flop trips

Hard to properly range jam with such limited information, but it would be fair to say he could have his share of FD and at times FD + SD that he’s jamming it in with. Call and hold IMO
NebDanger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2018, 03:18 AM   #11
momo_uk
old hand
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,649
1/3 - 87s, flop trips

A backraise is just always super strong. Not folding though cuz you can’t win if you fold bruhhhh.
momo_uk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2018, 10:47 AM   #12
jimicornerstone
journeyman
 
jimicornerstone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 372
Re: 1/3 - 87s, flop trips

Thanks for the replies. I didn't think it was too close at the time and called pretty quickly, thinking that (1) if he has even a few flush draws it's a call since his value range is so narrow and (2) his initial call combined with his flush draw obsession made it seem likely he could be doing it with a draw.

Anyway, turn was a and V looked like he was gonna puke. He turned over Q8o and said he thought I had a flush draw and if I wanted to "buy it" he was going to make it an expensive purchase.

In retrospect I've been thinking that this type of V just might not ever be putting this much money in the middle w/o a made hand. Maybe my description belied this V type, he was splashy pre but playing relatively straightforward post. My general strategy is to almost always let it go when a fishy V plays back at me - they just always have it. So I've been thinking maybe I shoulda coulda found a fold - probably just being results oriented.
jimicornerstone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2018, 12:08 PM   #13
gobbledygeek
Poet Laureate of LLSNL
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 26,276
Re: 1/3 - 87s, flop trips

I'm not so sure I call preflop; suited connectors are overrated, imo, and have some pretty poor RIO compared to their IO (this hand being a perfect example of that). I don't hate it since we likely have a pretty good handle on the openers range, but whenever someone else gets involved things could get ugly.

Unless this guy has shown a history of getting in big stacks with lol hands or big draws, I nit fold on the flop. We basically beat like 86. Shorter stacks that can go in super easily (like $200-), whatever, sure, snap call. IME, big stacks simply don't go in without nuttish hands, and we beat hardly any of those.

Admittedly, against an unknown who might not have that much casino experience (I HAZ TTs!!!), this is a difficult fold. But I still lean towards it this deep.

Grespectbigstacksizes,imoG
gobbledygeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2018, 01:03 PM   #14
adamzerner
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 66
Re: 1/3 - 87s, flop trips

Quote:
Hero (B - covers) - calls with 87
I agree with the call. I think the main reason to call is to look for value when you hit some sort of nut hand (two pair or better against these opponents). Suppose you want 25:1 implied odds for this. You'd need to expect to win $300 when you hit.

1. You're against two opponents.
2. Each has stacks more than $300.
3. UTG is strong because he's opening UTG and since this is $1/3, he'll probably get a ton of money in with top pair and overpairs. EP is fishy and splashy, so I think you can expect to extract a lot of value from him too.
4. You have position, making it easier for you to extract value.

As for raising, 87s isn't strong enough to raise for value, even if the Villains have wide ranges. Even if it was "strong enough", raising decreases the SPR, giving you less implied odds. Plus, these opponents aren't the type that you can extract value from by bluffing. So 87s just isn't the type of hand that makes sense to be raising for value if you don't expect to win money by bluffing when you miss. Similarly, raising as a bluff wouldn't make sense either (they're not folding pre, or post when you miss).

Quote:
FLOP ($35): 898
OMC bets $20
Villain calls relatively quickly
I think there's a lot of value to be had here by reraising. OMC looks like he has some sort of overpair that he wouldn't want to fold. Villain looks like he has some sort of draw. The board is very draw heavy, which means that from their perspectives, you could be raising with a draw, making it more likely that they'll call you.

As for raise size, I'd keep it around 3/4 pot. I think both opponents would call up to a pot sized reraise, possibly more, but the main reason I wouldn't want to do that is because I think it'd make it harder to get value on later streets, mainly the river when you blast it early.

Quote:
Villian thinks for maybe 10-15 seconds and jams it all in there
Hero?
One relevant question is what hands he could have that have you beat. 99 is one. A8s is another. Probably K8. Maybe Q8s. Maybe J8s. T8, 98. So there are some, but not very many combos.

Another relevant question is whether there are any second best hands he would be doing this with for value. Possibly 86s. Maybe some straight flush draws or small overpairs, but probably not.

I think the most important questions is how big his bluffing range is here. The pot odds look like they're about 3:2, so you need about 40% equity to justify calling.

Given your opponents style, I actually would expect him to raise right away with his bluffs. He initially flat called OMC's lead. He only raised after you reraised. Calling and then reraising as a bluff would be a pretty weird play. Not impossible, but I think it needs to be discounted a fair amount.

My impression is that he just doesn't have enough bluffs in his range here to justify the call. If he truly is a wild maniac, then I suppose you do have to call, but I don't think the evidence is there to assume that.
adamzerner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2018, 01:42 PM   #15
Koss
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Playing Recreationally
Posts: 4,347
Re: 1/3 - 87s, flop trips

Quote:
Originally Posted by momo_uk View Post
A backraise is just always super strong. Not folding though cuz you can’t win if you fold bruhhhh.
This.
Koss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2018, 02:07 PM   #16
hitchens97
adept
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,103
Re: 1/3 - 87s, flop trips

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimicornerstone View Post
Thanks for the replies. I didn't think it was too close at the time and called pretty quickly, thinking that (1) if he has even a few flush draws it's a call since his value range is so narrow and (2) his initial call combined with his flush draw obsession made it seem likely he could be doing it with a draw.

Anyway, turn was a and V looked like he was gonna puke. He turned over Q8o and said he thought I had a flush draw and if I wanted to "buy it" he was going to make it an expensive purchase.

In retrospect I've been thinking that this type of V just might not ever be putting this much money in the middle w/o a made hand. Maybe my description belied this V type, he was splashy pre but playing relatively straightforward post. My general strategy is to almost always let it go when a fishy V plays back at me - they just always have it. So I've been thinking maybe I shoulda coulda found a fold - probably just being results oriented.
Q8o **** me sideways, he's in EP and he calls an UTG OMC raise with Q8o. Whoa, though I guess nothing should surprise me at low stakes.

Mental note to isolate players in designer jeans...
hitchens97 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2018, 02:24 PM   #17
twitcherroo
grinder
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 584
Re: 1/3 - 87s, flop trips

Quote:
Originally Posted by hitchens97 View Post
Q8o **** me sideways, he's in EP and he calls an UTG OMC raise with Q8o. Whoa, though I guess nothing should surprise me at low stakes.

Mental note to isolate players in designer jeans...
100% standard. When V wants to play a hand, V plays a hand. Story over.

2 or 3 sessions ago I ran into an 84hh in a 5b preflop hand. I was way light as well so nice read by V. Even nicer binking the flush.
twitcherroo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2018, 08:28 PM   #18
feel wrath
The Situation
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: lost on the turn
Posts: 16,410
Re: 1/3 - 87s, flop trips

We beat flush draws, combo draws, overpairs and smaller 8x. And spaz.

We lose to 99, 98 and bigger 8x combos

Have to call here with pot odds
feel wrath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2018, 08:40 PM   #19
johnny_on_the_spot
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
johnny_on_the_spot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: S-Mart
Posts: 6,645
Re: 1/3 - 87s, flop trips

Grunch

This is kinda ****ty. We need like 40% equity. What draws/worse hands does V have here? We have basically the worst 8 like always. I doubt V is doing this with 99 or 98 (plus there is only 1 combo of 98s). I guess V has enough Axdd to make his a call because there aren't a ton of value hands either. I'm not thrilled about it though
johnny_on_the_spot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2018, 01:20 AM   #20
businessdude
Pooh-Bah
 
businessdude's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 5,577
Re: 1/3 - 87s, flop trips

I think it's close with the dead money in there, but I probably default to "The Course" philosophy and fold since 1/3 players rarely make a big bluff like this - but I try to play a lower variance style, so call could be EV correct.
businessdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2018, 01:57 AM   #21
hitchens97
adept
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,103
Re: 1/3 - 87s, flop trips

Quote:
Originally Posted by twitcherroo View Post
100% standard. When V wants to play a hand, V plays a hand. Story over.

2 or 3 sessions ago I ran into an 84hh in a 5b preflop hand. I was way light as well so nice read by V. Even nicer binking the flush.
You clearly play more/different low stakes than me. The amount of light 5 bets pre I've ever seen I could count on no fingers.
hitchens97 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online