$1/$3 blinds, 9-handed, played on a very loose table. Tomorrow is a public holiday in Victoria, Australia, so naturally, people come to the casino to get drunk and splash around money.

Hero (BTN) - Early 20s WG dressed up nicely. Has been running extremely hot. Never caught bluffing but have thin value bet in a few spots. $1200.

V1 (SB) - Drunk MAWG. Fairly loose. $200.

V2 (BB) - Loose disabled guy. Fairly stationy. $400.

V3 (UTG) - Indian guy. Very loose. $250.

V4 (UTG+1) - Drunk MAWG. Extremely loose-passive. Has only 3bet once in the past 4hrs and showed KK. $300.

V3 and V4 limp $3
Hero raises $21 BTN with 7c 7s
V1, V2, V3, V4 all call $21

Flop ($95, 5ways) is 6c 5d 4c

4 checks
Hero Cbets $60
V1 and V2 fold
V3 and V4 call $60

Turn ($270, 3ways) is Kh
Board is 6c 5d 4c Kh
V3 has $170 and V4 has $220 behind

2 checks
Hero ???

So I'm tossing up between 3 options: check back, bet small or jam. What do you think?

I think poker would be much easier if you would stop making it so hard. Just limp behind preflop here.

The more tough situations you put yourself in like this, the more mistakes you make...and they will be big ones.

At a table this loose, I'd overlimp 77 in a lot of positions, but I like the large raise from the BTN, especially if your game is no flop no drop.

AP, I'm not c-betting this flop. The pot is very large, and any bet is getting two of our Vs towards commitment point. Meanwhile, while we do have SDV, it's not a lot of it and our SD is likely more valuable than our "made hand" right now. We had a good plan pre, imo, but it didn't work out like we'd hoped. We don't have to continue aggression this multi way on a board that smacks limp/calling ranges with sets, 2-pair and combo draws. Sure, getting bare overcards to fold their equity is nice, but I don't think it is worth the cost.

AP to turn, ever betting small. What's the point? We're not getting either draws or even weak made hands to fold, and we're not charging draws enough to bother. If we don't want to jam (and given the table/Vs described, I don't think we do) look for that cheap showdown and check it back. Against other Vs, I might be tempted to jam, since they love to put us on AK, our c-bet likely folded out most Ks except KcXc, and it would put draws in a tough spot. Here though, their actions haven't really narrowed their ranges, since they are so loose-passive. Even sets and 2P are still very much in their ranges.

I wish the game was no flop no drop... unfortinately, it's 10% rake capped at $15, and preflop is no exception. Like if everyone had folded here, they would treat my raise as a call and they'd say "there's $13 in the pot, so $1 gets raked out." So I guess this is more reason to overlimp then.

Having said that, I thought that this was pretty much a dream flop for my hand, just shy of flopping a set. I don't necessarily believe I'm behind on the flop after I get called in 2 spots. Sure, I lose to sets, 2pr, straights (which I block) and overpairs, but I'm also beating FDs, OESDs, gutshots and all 1pr hands. Given that some of these guys were limp-calling $26 pre with J2s and J9o, I think we definitely need to include some 1pr hands and straight draws in their range.

I'm not thrilled about the K on the turn because they could have plenty of KXcc and even stuff like K2-K8s, although honestly, I can't think of many turn cards that I would be thrilled to see. Most of the deck is bad for me. I guess this is just the thing about those 77-JJ middling pairs... they always end up in tough spots like this.

Normally I hate limping on the btn but if they are that loose then I’m just set mining and hoping to get paid off.

Not sure why we raised preflop? We knew it was going to go eleventeen ways so all it did was kill our setmining odds, and against most stacks (drunk, loose, stationary) it sounds like we can play for those in a limped pot.

I probably also bet the flop. Good chance our hand is good plus we have outs if it isn't.

Preflop has really just set ourselves up for a spot we didn't need to be in on the turn. I probably check and hope it checks back and I get to showdown in a monster pot with a very mediocre hand UI.

GcluelessNLnoobG

+1

GOP,rereadthisseveraltimes,thenrereadseveraltimesm ore,itreallyiskeyG

Just because a spot is difficult or uncomfortable doesn't mean the prior action was a mistake. If $21 is getting too many callers here then go to $25-30 and try to narrow the field to 1 or 2 callers. 77 on the BTN is a pretty good hand.

Once we go 5-way to the flop I am going to check this back and see what develops on the turn. 66/55/44 are nearly always limp/calls from early position recs at LLSNL. I think when we x back the flop we nearly always see a river absent a bet -> raise on the turn.

As played, turn is close. I don't think we were being trapped on the flop by a better hand, but the K improves a lot of hands that limp/call pre and x/call the flop. We need 31% equity to shove and get called by V4 and be +EV. Slightly less at 28% for V3. And if both call we need 25%.

We've got 17% vs. a hand like KJ, so they only need to call with a few combos of worse for a shove to be +EV. These villains are going to call with hands like AJ, A8, A5, A3, A2, 98, and likely even hands like 76s, 75s, 53s, and 43s. We may even fold out some hands like TT/99 that were ahead on the flop but put us on AK and fold.

Either way, I think shoving is our best play here.

For me it's either/or. Either overlimp and mostly play an easy peasy high SPR pot in position, or go big and make sure we either take it down preflop or limit the field. The inbetween spot we ended up in (which is almost always going to cause us problems) is the spot we were going to end up in pretty much 100% of the time with these loose blinds and loose limpers.

GimoG

This doesnt make a whole lot of sense.

Most times in this hand we want to get to showdown cheaply. If we bet the flop we win the hand right there some decent percentage of the time. If we get called and dont improve we can check the turn back and see the river for free.

If we check the flop, we have zero chance of taking it down on the flop. We give everyone a free card and there's a good chance no matter what overcard comes on the turn, one of them will have it and we just let them beat us for free. A healthy flop bet folds out most overcard hands.

Lets talk about the turn NOT being an overcard. If we bet the flop we control the bet size. If we check the turn and its a 6 or below we may or may not have the best hand, we may or may not need to call a bet but one thing is for sure, we wont be controlling the bet size most times. I mean if it checks to us on the turn again, fine, but that means we were almost certainly ahead on the flop and shouldve bet. What are we doing if the turn is a card below a 7 and someone bets $80+? Folding? A flop bet wouldve solved that problem as well because we get to the river for $60 that OP bet on the flop (he couldve bet less as well).

As played jam the turn.

Thanks for your advice everyone.

Results:

Not surprising given you're limping 77 on the BTN here.

Mike you whine incessantly about my propensity for taking "crazy high variance lines" and then fail to bother reading this board and seeing how it interacts with blind cold call ranges and early position limp/calls.

Apparently you also play in games with players who've undergone lobotomies and only have the option to x/f or x/c the flop. Are you b/f the flop or are you b/f? Ironic that you are setting yourself up for GII flipping at best or a dog.

Glad to see not all mathematical concepts have been lost on you.

Okay ... and? Random overcards make up a much smaller portion of their collective range than you seem to think. Two overs have 13% equity to the turn and only 18% to the river. That's WA/WB territory.

So do they have overcards or do they have low cards? Who cares about controlling the bet size - oh no they bet $60 on the turn when you would have bet $50 on the flop. Oh the humanity! Realizing your equity is far more important here.

Solid results oriented analysis here. The true sign of a self-anointed crusher.

No - we are calling. Are you serious with this garbage?

Your inability to consider villains have the option of raising or bluffing when shown weakness is baffling. You must play in the softest game on Earth.

I whine about your about your crazy high variance lines? LOLOLOL Like I give a **** if you suffer high variance?

That's friggin hilarious. Every post you make in the bankroll thread includes YOU whining about how crazy the variance in poker is and how nobody knows their true win rate unless theyve played 1000000000 hours. You're something else. That's all I can say.

Against 4 opponents, combined there could easily be far more than just a few random overcards. Individually, yes, they are each sucking up very little equity, but combined they are sucking up quite a lot of equity and it's quite a coup if we get them all to fold (which they most likely will to a bet).

Gareasonforbettingtheflop,imoG

GG I find it hard to believe you would be bet/GII here on the flop and b/f is a disaster.

We likely have 10ish outs against a lot of hands and SPR is 2ish against some of the stacks, so even though I'm not pumped about getting it in it probably isn't the end of the world now that wer'e in this spot.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I like a b/c of 80 or 90 otf. We can't b/f and we are going to be jamming most turns. AP jam turn.