Hi All,

Thanks for all your feedback on this one:

Hero OTB (950) -- 56
Villain 1 (900) UTG
I feel like he is one of the targets at the table. Likes to float any pair OTF regardless of position, stacks off with 1 pair.. He just made is stack by calling 25 w/93s from EP and rivering the low end on some poor bastard..

OTTH:
V1 bets 25 UTG, Hero calls 25, SB calls 25

(78)
Q76
SB checks, V1 bets 40, Hero calls, SB calls

(198)
2
SB checks, V1 bets 80, Hero calls, SB folds

(358)
6
v1 bets 125, hero raises 300, V1 reraises all i... with it costing me ~ $450 more to call.

The villain asked me a couple times to confirm I had re raised before he went all in.

My questions:
- Is this a call PF? I feel like I am getting sufficient IO
- Is this a flat OTF? Am I looking to flop harder in order to continue? I figured he would cbet with the vast majority of his range and wanted to see if I could float and steal if he doesn't double barrel.
- Good price OTT, no? Implied odds as well, since all cards that hit my range will be pretty disguised.
- Call OTR? I am getting ~ 3.5 to 1 and there are only 6 combos of QQ that I am really afraid of here...


Thanks for all of your input everyone!!

I'd fold preflop due to RIO (almost every single hand we "make" with this hand is kindy sucky), but if this guy really is just going to hurp durp off 300bb stacks with TP (ORLY?), then whatever. Calling is by no means horrible this deep and likely HU in position against the table mark.

Is this guy cbetty after raising UTG and getting called in 2 spots? For a half PSB in position facing a lotta cbets, I guess we likely have to call here.

On the turn we're facing a relatively small bet and getting about 2.5:1. If all our outs are clean, we're getting right around the correct immediate odds (let alone some IO on the river), so I'm ok with it.

In general, facing a 3bet on the river for 300bb stacks is nuttish like almost always unless up against the most aggro / clueless of players. You're suggesting in the OP that this guy can get in 300bb stacks with just TP, so if that's the case, I guess fistpump call. You know who gets in 300bb stacks with TP nowadays? Absolutely nobody.

I can't fault postflop all that much, but for me it really comes back to preflop: hands like this don't carry nearly the IO you think they do, and they carry a lot more RIO than you think they do.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Based on V's description he seems like he might be the kind of person to over value and stack off with AA, KK, (and maaayyyybe) AQ here. Further, based on the description, it is likely that V is inexperienced 300bb deep. OTR, as you said, you really are only afraid of 3 combos of QQ (not 6, since there is a Q on the flop) and 3 combos of 77. You beat 6 combos of AA, 6 combos of KK, and (maybe) 12 combos of AQ. I call.

I'm fine with the flop call and turn call to draw deep.

Flop and turn call is fine, as played based on description I call river.

I’m basically good with the whole hand and really have to call the river, actually feeling pretty good about it. He should have a big pair and then Will tell you how stupid you are as you’re stacking his chips.

The only difference is that preflop I would have preferred more dead money before you called. That being said if V is a mark then I play the hand 100% the same as you.

GG I know you get this feedback constantly but you must play in the weirdest games on the planet. I watched guys get in 300bb each, several weeks ago, both BLIND I.e. legitimately never checked their hole cards. Different hand I shove a river for 150 bbs into 100bbs w/ A2o on a 246r,Q,J runout, got called, announce I had a 2, V asked what my kicker was, I show, MHIG and I scooped a 400bb pot. Sometimes my Game is a bunch of nits you can run over. But most of the time i’m Playing V’s who are at least trying win a pot.

+1

With the caveat that I fold pre this low. If you're calling 56s you're calling probably 50% of hands here which even against a fish in position seems break even at best. I get that we are targeting V but 6 high can be tough to play and we expect V to bet often. Surely there are better spots. I'd start calling at 89s (top 25% ish).

Against this guy you have to rely on your judgment, we weren't there to see exactly what kind of maniac he was. He calls it off with one pair and stations with 93s but does he bet/3b the river with one pair? I think they're two totally different things.

Your hand rankings are messed up if this is *only* top 50%.

Top 25% of hands?

So thats likes 89ss+... J10o+.... all PP's.... as well as all Axs?

We were so deep, I had position and he seemed like a mark, I was torn whether 56s was too light at the time...

Yeah, I felt he was very strong here... He raised $25 PF and fired on ALL 3 streets from UTG and was not scared of my river reraise in the slightest..

I did not feel like AA and KK play this way, I was not scared of 77 raising $25 PF from UTG... I thought there was only one hand he could possibly have, but I'm not good enough to fold my six's here and he could be spazzing, the pot is also monstrous at this point...

I called, he flipped over QQ's..

I was just wondering if I should be tightening up my PF requirements when deep stack.. The results of this hand make me feel like trying to stack people with SC's this small is a good way to value own myself like I did here. Or am I being too results oriented?

You were at the table so you'll have a better idea of conditions, but:

- I would put very little weight into whether you think he is raising 77 UTG; it was for less than 3% of his stack, so it could literally be anything, including 77; place *way* more weight on what happens on later streets for huge bets (where now 77 is much more in play regardless of how much weight you gave it preflop)

- as twitch states above, everyone's game plays different; you see a lotta people sticking in 300bb postflop with TP, or playing AA/KK/AQ this way (3betting a river raise for huge stacks!?!?!); if so, more reason to snap call; if not, more reason to perhaps rethink what is going on

- you don't exactly say how the 93sooted hand was played; yeah, it was for $25 preflop in EP, but so what (people wanna see a flop); was he getting ok odds postflop to chase whatever he was chasing (did he have multiple draws) or did someone let him get there for free; and what kind of stacks was he dealing with (people play 100bb stacks very differently than 300bb stacks, at least in my experience)

Gyouknowbetterthanus,imoG

He completed the $25 in EP w/93s, in a pot that was going 5 way.. Im sure he figured he had suited cards in a 5 way pot, let's gamble.. He had a low end OESD that ended up coming in on the river.. He was not getting odds to call OTT, but the flop was 3 or 4 ways from what I remember.. Shocked the **** out of the table at the time, he did crack AA with it..

You are right though GG, nobody is shoving 300 BB w/1 pair in this spot, even the "marks." I probably shouldn't be in this spot to begin with because of the RIO of a hand like 56ss.

Out of curiosity, whats the bottom end of your range from button here PF against a LAG, that will call off light, when you are 300+bbs deep GG?

First off don't beat yourself up, the only way to get better at poker is to pay for it through mistakes. So learn what you can from this, but the lesson is not to never play suited connectors when deep again.

As the effective stacks grow from 100-200 BB, 200-350 BB, and then 350+ BB etc. you definitely need to adjust your preflop ranges. Being in position becomes 1000x more important. And instead of pots being decided on the turn, players will play more loosely until the river because their implied odds are much higher.

The reality is that most players, recreational or otherwise, will understand the relative value of their hand on this board this deep, and a 3bet on the river is typically going to be very strong. The way you worded the OP you made it sound as though he would jam with AA/KK which is why you got the responses you did. But the key to making good river decisions and decisions in general is to get as accurate an idea as possible of your opponent's thought process and how they value different hands in different situations, and make your decision based off that understanding.

Yea I have Poker Bankroll Tracker app on my phone and it doesn't put in 56s until 49.3%. Can someone post Equilab or PokerStove for 56s?

I don't have a good answer to that, mostly because I suck at deepstack and go out of my way to avoid these type of situations with RIO hands. Which means I'm likely way too tight here (I like hands that can make ~nuttish hands deep and kinda hate hands that don't), but that's fine for my skillset (and will obviously be way too tight for others who have a better skillset than me).

Gplaytoyourwheelhouse,imoG

Even with your read that AA and KK don't 3 bet there are only 3 combos of QQ and you noted he has some combos of spaz. Even 2 or 3 combos of spaz probably still make this a call AP.

I think answer is V dependent for me and as noted earlier I still don't want to go too low. I would rather raise over limpers in postion with 56s and fold to the EP raise with the same hand. Against described V calling 89s+ as noted ealier.

That river re-raise is almost always for value and hands we beat basically never raise for value, so I honestly think against all but the craziest people, we are saving money by folding.

That being said, I don't know that your villain description is enough to really let us know if villain really is or isn't this crazy.

I might actually call here, in practice, but I can't imagine how anyone is ever that happy about it...

well played

In addition, for 65s to be profitable HU we are going to need fold equity. However, this Villain is someone who does not like to fold.

I can do that.


Board: Q67
Equity Win Tie
MP2 38.79% 38.60% 0.20% { 22+, A9s+, A5s-A2s, KTs+, QJs, J9s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, 76s, AJo+, A5o-A2o, KQo }
BU 61.21% 61.01% 0.20% { 6c5c }


Board: Q67 2
Equity Win Tie
MP2 32.27% 32.27% 0.00% { 22+, A9s+, A5s-A2s, KTs+, QJs, J9s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, 76s, AJo+, A5o-A2o, KQo }
BU 67.73% 67.73% 0.00% { 6c5c }


Board: Q67 2 6
Equity Win Tie
MP2 4.65% 4.65% 0.00% { 22+, A9s+, A5s-A2s, KTs+, QJs, J9s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, 76s, AJo+, A5o-A2o, KQo }
BU 95.35% 95.35% 0.00% { 6c5c }


Unless there are other reads or considerations. Looks pretty good.

Very similar situation came up in one of BlackRain's vids:

https://youtu.be/cml4hdEdnYM

It doesn't really account for "playability" of your hand, rather just raw equity or whatever other formulas they use.

E.g. standard CO RFI is about 20-28% of hands. 65s is definitely always in that range, albeit the bottom of the CO RFI.

Pre is actually pretty borderline and mostly a fold unless your opponent is an idiot, but given description that he stacks off w/ lol one pair I'm def ok with calling here OTB vs a 8x raise.

Lots of results oriented. If he plays AA/KK/QQ this way you are winning more often then losing. In reality the deeper effective stacks are the wider you can play*. It also raises the skill level, because you have more options at every step there are more ways to be wrong.

There isn't actually much to improve in this hand. Against some opponents you could fold to the river shove but it depends on how much he over values an over pair and how aggressive villain is. The preflop call is not one you should make every time. It's inside a reasonable calling range but near the bottom and your implied are are dampened by the big preflop raise.

* And while obviously not a concern here, the wider you need to play against good opponents. If you don't your range becomes too predictable.

This is probably the most important point here. I'm not sure you can infer much from what you said, about what a river re-raise might mean from him.


I like the way you played it up to the river, and unless we have one hell of a read, I feel this is a fold.