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Old 03-25-2014, 05:04 AM   #26
Diceman
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

Pretty gross spot on the turn.

I do think it's interesting that the board paired though. That makes me want to call(/getitin) his turn c/r even more.

If he had flopped a flush, I don't see him c/r the turn when the board pairs nearly as often. The board pairing makes a c/c much more likely. And if he did have JJ or 88 he filled up and most villains would opt to c/c over c/r because they are now usually rooting for a heart to hit, or at least are not scared of one at all, and praying that you have a flush or are drawing to one.

If a 5x or 4x for instance had rolled off on the turn and he made the same c/r, I probably would have folded since it changes his perceived range from my pov. Maybe a weird way of looking at it, but that's how a lot of players tend to think/play
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Old 03-25-2014, 08:18 AM   #27
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

He didn't c/r--I was first to act on all betting rounds.
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Old 03-25-2014, 08:42 AM   #28
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

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Originally Posted by corlath View Post
I tanked.


There was one more piece of information that I wasn't considering for that hand: he was down for the session (he pointed this out later) and needed that pot to get back up. He had already said he was down, but I didn't realize that he's the kind of player to make desperate moves to get back up when he's down, and the fact that he was down already didn't even enter my mind when I was thinking things over.
I was going to say this is not a desperate move on his part. But he has a gutter and 3rd flush draw (thought it was OESD) ... and ... he knows he probably not going to get any more chips on the River unless he's beat!! So this is a bit of a move.

The other tid-bit that you can look at also is the calling quickly out of turn. This normally means some sort of draw on Flop.

I agree that with the 'quick-call' I might c/c Turn but I would also consider c/r Turn with this board since it probably didn't help anyone and I am not getting paid on River unless I'm beat ... we are OOP here, not a bad thing to try and get that 3rd bet in there before the River comes out. GL
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Old 03-25-2014, 06:02 PM   #29
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

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Originally Posted by corlath View Post
He didn't c/r--I was first to act on all betting rounds.
Oh my mistake. Wow. Well, that makes it even more likely that I call, as that line is not nearly as strong IMO and I feel plenty of villains are capable of raising draws on the turn as semi-bluffs trying to take it down right there.

It also makes him even more likely to smooth call full houses and (although to a lesser extent) flushes, because he'll be last to act on the river and can extract value more easily.

Without solid reads that tell me otherwise, I'd likely get it in on the turn when he raised.
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Old 03-25-2014, 06:14 PM   #30
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

It's also very important in these situations to not only put him on a range of hands, but see how our hand fares against that range.

In simple terms, we can say his range on the turn consists of flushes, full houses, flush draws, straight draws, combo draws (pair+FD, pair+SD, FD+SD, etc.), and air (never fully discount air.)

After weighting those ranges based on hand reading and combinatorics, I'd weight his range toward draws (FD, pair+FD, SD+FD specifically) at the top of his range, then flushes, then air, then full houses.

We have an Ah blocker/redraw on the draws and having Aces up blocks outs on his pair+FD (when he hits his kicker) or FD+SD hands. Our equity is good against those hands.

Against made flushes, we still have 4 outs which isn't great but that's a big deal. This is less likely than him having a draw IMO, but it is the relative part of his range that has us in worst shape, factoring in it's likelihood.

Air we are obv crushing and he's likely drawing dead.

Full-houses have us crushed and likely drawing to 2 outs, but I feel this is a minute part of his range as this line is not common for villain since his hand it so robust, plus the combinatorics make it even more unlikely, relative to the other options in range.

Against this weighted range, and the fact that we're oop and will have difficulty maneuvering on a lot of rivers (i.e. a fourth heart), I favor getting it in one the turn when he raises.

Hope that made sense.
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Old 03-26-2014, 01:52 AM   #31
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

I didn't have the Ah. That was key. If I had the Ah I would've *definitely* shoved.

It's possible I still should've shoved without it, but it would've made it a TON easier. I literally thought, as I was tanking, if I had the Ah this wouldn't even be a question (after considering for a bit).
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Old 03-26-2014, 10:42 AM   #32
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

I know we didn't have the Ah. I said we have an Ah blocker/redraw, meaning that an Ah on the river gives us a full house and the second nuts.

This not only makes one less heart that we have to worry about on the river, but it also doubles as an out for us in the event that we are behind on the turn.


I agree, however, that actually having the Ah would make this decision much easier
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Old 03-27-2014, 01:46 AM   #33
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

Whole hand is played well so long as you folded turn.
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Old 03-27-2014, 02:28 AM   #34
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

I folded turn and he was bluffing with Qh9x. I'm glad enough people disagree about the hand to make me feel like folding wasn't "terribad".

Also, without question there will be better spots against this guy.
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