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Old 03-23-2014, 02:06 AM   #1
corlath
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1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

V1 (120): a bank manager who has bragged before about how much money he has to burn, in the middle of a heated argument with another player. He likes taking down pots uncontested on the flop. (Who doesn't? But he fires at "unwanted" pots way more than other people.) He's laggy with his preflop raises, but he doesn't tend to double- or triple-barrel, or shove huge bluffs in.

V2 (400): a landscaper who is more capable of making big bluffs on the turn/river. He's not a "steal the pot on the flop" kind of guy. He's relatively loose-passive preflop, often limping in or calling raises with a variety of speculative hands. However, he's tighter *making* preflop raises than V1, and is also observant. Knows hero doesn't put in a lot of money without a good hand. Also knows hero can make smart folds.

Hero: currently up to 385 from 300. Tight image, V2 knows to be a winning player, V1 probably doesn't care one way or the other

I pick up AA UTG, raise to 15. V1 calls in the CO, V2 calls on the button.

Pot 49

Flop J86

I bet out 35, hoping to take it down here. Thoughts on this bet? Should be larger if I want to take it down, right?

I'll post further info on the hand as I get feedback. (I won't wait too long to post the next step as this seems a pretty simple thing to critique).
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Old 03-23-2014, 02:14 AM   #2
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

Why do you want to take it down now? I sure wouldn't mind getting called by KJx no heart, etc. You're also beating straight and flush draws and get to bet the turn again to get more value from those when/if they miss. So I don't think you're quite coming at it with the right goal.

Don't "bet larger so you can take it down." Bet larger because this is a situation where you can get so much more value from so many hands that are worse than yours even with larger bet sizing.

I'd bet 40-45 on the flop. You'll get called by ranges of hands including Jx, T9, 97, 75, XXh, etc. And I'm never folding to V1 given stack sizes.
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Old 03-23-2014, 02:42 AM   #3
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

AA on J86hhh is like, umm... like somewhere between medium strength <-> strong clear value hand. Treat it like you would treat TT on J86r, your bet size is fine as a value bet but your logic is bad.

Betting larger to "take it down" doesn't make any sense since you're never gonna get a better hand to fold, and we shouldn't be scared to get called by worse hands and have to play turns and rivers (which is what I suspect you're afraid of). That's just poker \_(ツ)_/
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Old 03-23-2014, 02:47 AM   #4
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

Quote:
Why do you want to take it down now?
Well, mostly because I don't feel that comfortable on a monotone board with one pair, regardless of how high that pair is. I don't know if they're really calling me here with KJ no heart.

I see your logic, and understand that getting value is important...but flopping an overpair is already dangerous when you have 125bb behind, let alone on a monotone flop. I guess that, once again, I'm not focused enough on ranging my opponents, which would lead to stronger b/f kinds of lines by me--trying to get max value from worse hands while knowing when to let it go. The thing I hate is that knowing when to let it go can be so costly.
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Old 03-23-2014, 02:53 AM   #5
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

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Originally Posted by Aesah View Post
AA on J86hhh is like, umm... like somewhere between medium strength <-> strong clear value hand. Treat it like you would treat TT on J86r, your bet size is fine as a value bet but your logic is bad.

Betting larger to "take it down" doesn't make any sense since you're never gonna get a better hand to fold, and we shouldn't be scared to get called by worse hands and have to play turns and rivers (which is what I suspect you're afraid of). That's just poker \_(ツ)_/
Ah, thank you for that comparison, that actually helps.

Yeah, I don't like playing turns and rivers in this kind of situation in general, OOP even less. But I'll post the next part:

V2 calls out of turn, apparently forgot V1 was in the hand and was also calling. So, both opponents called the 35, but the order was a little weird. I could treat V2's call as if he thought we were heads up. This didn't affect my thinking nearly as much as the fact that they did, in fact, both call, which I'm not a huge fan of...

What are you ranging them on? I'm thinking one of them could definitely be slowplaying the flush, but if one of them was, due to stack sizes, it's way more likely to be V2. V1 would probably just Gii for his last 70 unless he actually had the nut flush. One of them could have a set or two pair, I'm also definitely ranging them as maybe having a pair (any of the three) with a high heart.

My guess for V1 is much closer to a jack with king or queen of hearts, type hand. Maybe even 9T with a heart. V2 is harder for me to range.

Pot 154

Board J86 6

Hero?

Last edited by corlath; 03-23-2014 at 03:00 AM.
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Old 03-23-2014, 02:59 AM   #6
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

great turn card for you.

I would bet 70 since that's what V1 has left, and if V1 calls and V2 raises we can fold, if they both just call we can check/fold to any 1/2+ pot sized river since he shouldn't have any inclination to bluff into a dry side pot. If V1 folds and V2 calls, I'd probably block bet like 1/3 pot on any non-heart river, or 1/5 pot on any heart river.
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Old 03-23-2014, 03:02 AM   #7
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

That's a good card turn for you.

There's obviously a small chance someone had something like 7h6x or Ah6x on the flop, but it's not very likely (said another way, they have a much higher density of hands other than x6), and you often have the best hand and can still continue to get value from draws and Jx, etc.

So many turn cards would have been bad for you because they complete possible draws: a heart, Q, 7, T, 5, etc. The 6 is a very decent card for you. Obviously, something like a 2s would have been even better.

Bet something around $120.

V1 will go all-in with whatever he has - probably a draw. And I think you can fold to a committing raise from V2 as you'll have committed around $150 out of $400, which gives you room to fold, and I think a turn raise from V2 after V1 calls (and I expect V1 to call always) is going to be fairly strong for a number of reasons including that V2 can no longer fold everyone out (V1 is all-in). I don't expect V2 to raise too often though... he's much more likely to raise the flop with most hands that might raise now.
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Old 03-23-2014, 03:07 AM   #8
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

Okay, I'll go ahead and say that I did bet 75 on the turn.

V1 thought for a bit and folded, and V2 thought for a bit, and then made it 125 on top.

Ideas? Reads?
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Old 03-23-2014, 03:09 AM   #9
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

I'm folding then.
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Old 03-23-2014, 03:14 AM   #10
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

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Originally Posted by Willyoman View Post
I'm folding then.
Could you tell me what you're putting him on and why? Or, basically, explain the action? Is it that there's too much out there that beats me?
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Old 03-23-2014, 04:04 AM   #11
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

Tough spot. There's definitely not "too much out there that beats you", you basically only lose to flopped flushes or sets, which are obviously super rare so if you think villain is even the slightest bit spazzy I would just ship it to get value from hands with 1 heart, given your description.
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Old 03-23-2014, 09:19 AM   #12
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

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Originally Posted by corlath View Post
Well, mostly because I don't feel that comfortable on a monotone board with one pair, regardless of how high that pair is. I don't know if they're really calling me here with KJ no heart.

I see your logic, and understand that getting value is important...but flopping an overpair is already dangerous when you have 125bb behind, let alone on a monotone flop. I guess that, once again, I'm not focused enough on ranging my opponents, which would lead to stronger b/f kinds of lines by me--trying to get max value from worse hands while knowing when to let it go. The thing I hate is that knowing when to let it go can be so costly.

Corlath, i have to chime in on this- as i the last months have worked alot on the bolded part wich you obviously also works with: ranging my opponents during hands, and dont get caught up in my head. Its like talking to a girl you really like: if you get caught up in your head(your own hand), you wont be able to listen to her. You wont be able to listen to her body language (or your villains at the pokertable), or her spoken words. Because you are to much up in your head ( thinking about what you are gonna say next).

It was a part of the game that i struggled with for a very long time. In hands i played i somehow froze up, and always thought of the worst hands my opponents could have- also leading to MUBS in some hands.

My two cents would be to try get out of your head, and as soon as the flop comes down start to think through what hands your villains can call with. Both the hands that you beat and the hands that beat you, and then think about how likely it is that you are beat compared to the hands that you actually beat.

In this particular hand your getting value from so many hands, strong top pairs type of hands without a flushdraw, nutflushdraw, pairs with flushdraw and so on. If you can manage to get this thoughtprocess starting as soon as the flop is dealt, i am sure you will feel a major breakthrough in your overall game. You will be starting to bet/fold most of your opponents to death

Also i will fold to the turnraise. Its so strong, especially after you raised preflop, and fired both flop and the turn. When he raises the turn here i feel its dominated by made flushes,trips or/ and full boats- so i woudnt feel to bad about folding your bullets here.

Last edited by Gilmour; 03-23-2014 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 03-23-2014, 01:17 PM   #13
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

I tanked.

I knew that this guy all but *had* to put me on QQ+. I knew that he was capable of making a big bluff to try to shove me off. But I also know that if he thinks I have a heart in my pair, he could be getting value with a made hand. I've acted so strongly that maybe he thinks he's getting value.

But it's in his character to make big bluffs like this. I knew that if I had the ace of hearts with my pair, I would shove without a doubt. I wanted to shove here. I actually thought of that Full Tilt commercial where all that stuff goes through Ivey's mind when he's thinking, and his thought process ends on: "I like my chances. I'm all in."

I really, really wanted to shove, but I felt like because he called on the flop and knew I bet out into two opponents on the turn, there was a greater chance that he had value. I looked over at him with hawk eyes, he just kept staring at the board, looked up at me for a second, and stared back down. He didn't feel particularly strong...but...

I didn't pull the trigger. I folded, and he showed Qh9s.

I was so close. SO close. I do feel like I *almost* made a breakthrough.

There was one more piece of information that I wasn't considering for that hand: he was down for the session (he pointed this out later) and needed that pot to get back up. He had already said he was down, but I didn't realize that he's the kind of player to make desperate moves to get back up when he's down, and the fact that he was down already didn't even enter my mind when I was thinking things over.

I still feel proud knowing that I would've shoved with any overpair that had a heart, because that's a bit of a breakthrough for me regardless. What I'm most proud of is that during my tank, I wasn't just blindly fearful with a cloud of fog in my brain saying "either he has it or he doesn't". Maybe there was still a bit of that, but not nearly as much as usual. Most of my tank time was spent actually thinking things through.

This hand really makes me want to get better. I would not even remotely consider moving up in stakes unless I could consistently make the right play in a situation like this, even if I'm rolled for 2/5.

Last edited by corlath; 03-23-2014 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 03-23-2014, 01:57 PM   #14
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

I still think my ranging in this hand needs work. There was a bit of the "either he has it or he doesn't". Most of the actual thinking that I did related to different ways he could have it (including A6 with the A of hearts). But that's part of why I would've shoved with the heart if I had it. (Also because my equity against a made flush goes WAY up, having 4 outs to the boat and 7 outs to the better flush--maybe 5 or 6 minus possible straight flush draws, but still.)

The thing is, him being desperate would mean he would make a big move like this to get me off, but it could also mean he would call with a junky hand like 67 on the flop just hoping to bluff and happening to catch.

what I failed to do was to think of the entire range of hands he could have here that I was ahead of. I thought of 9T with a heart, and a jack with a heart. I guess those were my main two thoughts, and I didn't think of TQ, 9Q, 7T, or 79 with a heart.

I don't know. It's *still* a close call in my mind. He said afterward that he would've had to fold if I shoved. He puts me on an overpair, and he doesn't know that his heart isn't dead to my K or A of hearts, so I definitely believe him. I'm not getting that extra 100 dollars from those four hands in his range unless his "**** it" switch goes off in his head.
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Old 03-23-2014, 03:57 PM   #15
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

Against most players, flop and turn is a bet fold all day. Against described villain, I think you're way better off either check callin down or bet calling. Bet folding against a guy who makes a ton of turn and river bluffs is not good
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Old 03-23-2014, 04:17 PM   #16
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

Yeah, it's an easy fold against most players.

I have to wonder, if I had checked the turn, if we would've seen a river 3-way...and then what? Probably check call any bet from either player on a non-heart non-jack river, unless V1 shoved and V2 called.

If I check turn and V1 shoves, V2 folds, I call. If I check turn and V1 checks and V2 bets 75, I have a really tough spot, probably tougher than what actually happened.
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Old 03-23-2014, 04:51 PM   #17
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Like i said earlier, its really hard to flop a flush
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Old 03-23-2014, 06:25 PM   #18
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

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Originally Posted by corlath View Post
I bet out 35, hoping to take it down here. Thoughts on this bet? Should be larger if I want to take it down, right?
nonononono

You don't want to take it down you want value. This is actually a nice flop because there are so many worse hands that can call. Any pair+heart, any bare high heart, and of course jx. Sucks that a lot of the time a fourth heart will come off and you will end up c/f'ing but it's a good thing when you bet 35 here and get two callers.

turn part 1:

Hero bets again, 70-75, probably making the same bet on most rivers if we are called (as on the river hands like pair+fd which we can get a lot of value from on the flop and turn just become one crappy pair on the river)

Tried to grunch the next part of the hand, accidentally read ahead and saw aesah's post agree with it.
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Old 03-23-2014, 07:00 PM   #19
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

Yeah, I mean, I fold, but turn is definitely a tough spot.

My reason for folding is really the nature of your read. First, he's loose/passive pre-flop. This to me is the most reliable possible tell - it's very easy to see when someone is loose/passive pre-flop. They're limping and calling a lot of hands. And being loose/passive pre-flop is often (though not always) going to correlated with other loose/passive tendencies post-flop.

For the rest of the read, I see OP saying things like: "capable of making big bluffs on the turn/river... (but) he's not a "steal the pot on the flop" kind of guy... Knows hero doesn't put in a lot of money without a good hand. Also knows hero can make smart folds."

I just don't find that part of the read to be very reliable. I mean, do you have 2,000 hands on the guy? He's loose/passive pre, does not try to "steal" pots on the flop, but can make big bluffs on the turn and river... he knows hero makes smart folds... etc.

I mean, this is an incredibly detailed read, and if you feel it's spot on, then definitely don't fold the turn. To me, it sounds a little contrived and probably based on very few hands and on quite a bit of speculative thinking... like how can you really know that he thinks you can make smart folds, etc. I think we're over thinking things here.

So yeah, I fold because I find the loose/passive read to be most reliable.
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Old 03-24-2014, 08:44 AM   #20
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

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Originally Posted by Willyoman View Post
For the rest of the read, I see OP saying things like: "capable of making big bluffs on the turn/river... (but) he's not a "steal the pot on the flop" kind of guy... Knows hero doesn't put in a lot of money without a good hand. Also knows hero can make smart folds."

I just don't find that part of the read to be very reliable. I mean, do you have 2,000 hands on the guy? He's loose/passive pre, does not try to "steal" pots on the flop, but can make big bluffs on the turn and river... he knows hero makes smart folds... etc.

I mean, this is an incredibly detailed read, and if you feel it's spot on, then definitely don't fold the turn. To me, it sounds a little contrived and probably based on very few hands and on quite a bit of speculative thinking... like how can you really know that he thinks you can make smart folds, etc. I think we're over thinking things here.
How many hours? Hmm. I would say I've played with him for probably around 100 hours, so 2500 hands, yeah. Within just the last couple weeks, I've seen him bluff on the river at least twice. I've seen him make large river bluffs (like over $100) on numerous occasions, often when he missed his draw.

He and I rode to the casino together recently.

He's told me multiple times that he thinks I'm a really good player, that I'm tight, he has told me that sometimes I think too much and sometimes I need to just go with my gut. Due to his style he tends to win a ton when he wins--he's had bigger winning days than my biggest.

Once, I c-bet with QsKs on a Ts8s3d board against him, and he called, and the turn came 4s, and I checked after a few seconds, and he shoved 80 or so into the 80ish pot, I instacalled, obviously I was good there.

Trust me, my knowledge of him is pretty good, although not as good as it should be for how many hands I've played with him (I don't pay close enough attention) and I screwed up by betting the turn when I wasn't mentally ready to gii.

Edit: I just remembered another hand he played once, where he bet $75 on the turn against a drunken spewy player, with AsJs, on a Qs Ts x x board, player called, river hit nonflush king, he checked, the spewer shoved 250 in, he snapped it ofc.
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Old 03-24-2014, 09:04 AM   #21
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

Fair enough.
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Old 03-24-2014, 09:12 AM   #22
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

I still think it was close, even with everything I knew, and I don't feel horrible about the fold. I was *this* close to shoving.

I hope that I adjust properly before he starts really changing his style against me. I'm clearly leaving a lot of money on the table.
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Old 03-24-2014, 01:12 PM   #23
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

Well, I guess preflop narrowed the field (good) but we'll be OOP to both opponents in the hand (bad, especially considering that with this SPR we'll probably have to implement pot control, which is difficult to do OOP).

I don't hate the flop bet. I think the sizing is fine, if anyone calls with a single card flush draw they're ******ed because their implied odds should be extremely low, so it's a fine size. If V1 calls, we're committed on a non-heart. If V2 calls, I'd probably attempt to pot control by checking the turn, but we're going to be in a tough spot if he bets. If V2 raises, I think I just let it go. Playing OOP in pots we would like to pot control due to SPR is difficult, which is why I don't think preflop is as simple as others might assume.

ETA: Whoops, missed this was 5handed, so an open is fine. Just dumb luck I guess that we ended OOP to both opponents.

ETA: What's everyone's line on the river if V just calls our turn bet? We'll be left with less than a PSB, OOP, a pretty gross spot, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 03-24-2014, 01:20 PM   #24
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

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... if anyone calls with a single card flush draw they're ******ed because their implied odds should be extremely low ...
Because the flush would be so obvious if they hit?
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Old 03-25-2014, 01:43 AM   #25
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Re: 1/3, 5-handed: AA 3-way on monotone flop (no draw)

Against this villain I would probably check-call his river bet on a good blank card.

Ideal would be an offsuit K, T, 9, 5, 4, 3, or 2, and on those I would probably pay off 150. So if his T hits and he bets, congrats. Folding any heart, probably folding to a queen or 7 for more than 100 in case he was open ended with T9 one heart.

He might check back his straight for value though, afraid that I have a boat or flush. I've trapped him before (as mentioned) into shoving when I have the near nuts. He also might actually check back his lower flush hits, but that's irrelevant, as I'm folding to any heart.

If he's calling me down to the river when he's behind, without a heart, congratulations, I'll just get my value from him on another hand.

Seriously, if I had the Ah instead of Ad I would've shoved the turn, it was that close.
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