1/3 game. Been playing about an hour. Game is slow and uninspired mostly passive fish, and hero wants to change tables but there is a long list.

Villain seated to my right is a 28ish year old pro who plays 2-5 and 5-10. Seems like a good live player, very in control. He has raised on button twice so far.

Hero has $300 which is what I bought in for, and villain covers. Hero picks up 88 in the SB. 4 limpers to Villain who makes it $16. I make it $40 to go (impulsive decision - just wanted to butt heads) Folds to villain who makes it $85.

Now the SPR will be about 1.4 if I call.

Hero?

Pre is whatever. I don't really mind a call, fold, or 3bet (you're only 100BB effective when he's made it just over 5x OTB). I would have 3bet larger (you only made it 2.5x it, I doubt he's folding a single hand in his range to this 3bet.)

As played facing the 4bet given the odds and the dead money I think you have to call although its not exactly great. Yes we're not quite getting the odds to hit a set, but we can still play some flops when they're good for our range and check-shove 88 (i.e. T96r).
Folding is ok as well too. If you're only just shotting 1/3 I would fold.

Just fold to the 4-bet. Probably still not a good enough price to call. If you had an extra $50-$100, it's closer and I think you call.

I'm not a fan of the 3-bet with 88. What's a guy who is "good" making it only $16 over 4 limpers. Sounds like he wants some action. However, it's small and could easily be a weaker range. Seems odd to want to bloat a pot up without having something if you're "good".

So flat or fold in my opinion unless you have merit to think he is going to fold.

I hate the 3bet. You can start a cascade of calls. You want to play against multiple players to increase your IO when you hit a set. I'd rather 3! bluff with a hand like K5s that we can easily fold when villain comes over the top and we have a blocker.

I'd usually just set mine pre. If you call this could go 4 or 5-way to a flop with a great price to set mine. If you're 3-betting go at least 50 as you want folds. As played fold to 4-bet. You're never head and going to need to gii to realize your equity v AK.

Agreed I don't like my 3 bet and it was a reactive play.

I'm curious what you all think of the low SPR in this scenario. I would think with a middle pair we really want a high SPR. Making my play just really atrocious, lol.

Yes usually w a middle pair you're set mining, esp v a 3-bet, and you want to be able to win a lot relative to the amount you put in the pot so a high SPR.

Super easy fold, and bad 3bet when you had fine setmining odds.

A skilled at patient player knows 1/2 players are almost never 3 betting light. His 4bet range should be KK+ most of the time.

If you've been playing only an hour, V hasn't had the Button more than 3 times. So, either he got good hands [AJs;AQo;KQs;99+] 2 of those 3 times, or he plays a wide range aggro off the Button.

If it's good hands he has, you're in bad shape with 37% equity.

Question is what he thinks of your game, because your 3! OOP which signals strength.
As V, I would often flat your 3! with AA/KK to cap my range in your mind & be prepared to stack off OTF.

However, if I think you're the type to get stubborn & call a 4!, so be it. Then you're more committed post-flop.

If I'm V & have AK, I want to 4! to see if you 5!, which you should with AA/KK & maybe even QQ? If I think you'll only 5! with AA/KK, I cap your range with my 4! if you flat.

If he plays a much wider range OTB & will 4! with same, you are looking at missing the flop the vast majority of time AND seeing 2 overs to your 88.

Since he plays 2/5 & 5/10, he knows how rich in Ev the Button, CO & HJ seats are & you are going to get outplayed.

I would have just called his raise, hoping for other callers for the IO when I flop a set. I know most of my limitations. Some of them not so much & they get me trouble at times, but I'm NEVER 3! with 88 vs. a pro in this situation.

There is more than one right line with 88 here but personally I'm just set-mining with all small-medium pocket pairs. If I want to "butt heads" with an opponent because I think he is opening too wide I would rather do it with 79s or 89s or something. I think by 3-betting here we are turning 88 into a bluff and diminishing it's actual value. Flatting here lets us set-mine multi-way which is a nice spot in my opinion.

Once we get 4 bet I am firing those bad boys into the muck so fast they might burn the building down. We're not deep enough to be putting in more money pre.

What post-flop scenario are you hoping for if we call? The money is going in so I guess you could bluff catch on a non A or K high board? Not the kind of spot I look for.

A COTM on how to play 98s in the SB with a 3! pre vs. a good player's raise OTB would be interesting.

Is it just Mods who do that or could I take a crack at it? Unless you're being sarcastic..

It is not true that only Mods write COTMs. PM venice10 or Garick. My weakest link is playing OOP.

If this was an online game or you wanted to take a more theoretical approach, you would be correct to 3! 88 for value from the SB. A $16 raise over four limpers is way too small an amount to take with a hand like AK, AQo, AJo or any pair 88+ (in my opinion). This guy is a 2/5 and 5/10 pro so he understands position, SPR and proper raise sizing to manipulate the SPR to his liking.

His most likely hands here are small/medium PP's that are building the pot for when he hits, medium SC's (87s-QJs) which leave him maneuverability postflop, and small Axs hands with the occasional ATs, AJs and AQs variety that play well multiway in position.

In live poker the exploitive play is generally more correct than the GTO approach, and with so many limpers in the hand we can call the $16 to set-mine and start a cascade of calls to get 5:1 on our money with the most likely "top set" when we hit.

That said, 100 BB's deep this is a very interesting spot to play back at villain. If I was going to 3! villain, I would have sized it larger to $60-70 which makes for an easier 5! shove or call off if he 4! jams. Villain is virtually never taking this line with TT+ (unless he himself is making an exploitative play).

As played, I think he is 4! bluffing you with an Axs hand hoping you fold your hands with 70% equity which is massively +EV for villain. Your counter-punch is to shove all-in over his $85 and force him to fold the majority of his range which has 30-50% equity against you (or call it off which is very +EV for you).

The worst case scenario is he calls you with the handful of discounted QQ+ combos he has in his range in which case we still have 20%. And when he folds or calls the 75-90% of his range that is not QQ+ we win a very nice rake-free pot.

The key with deciding whether to 3! 88 from the blinds here or not is asking yourself "am I committed to realizing my equity and taking this hand to the felt?" This is not a hand to call and see a flop with OOP and then surrender your equity by x/f. Neutralize your positional disadvantage by leveraging your range advantage and 5! shoving (or calling villain's 4! shove) to realize your equity.

This is well thought out, and it is reasonable to assume pro villian used to playing bigger is capable of making this move.

But we are missing why he would.
What is Hero's table image? Does villian think you have a 3bet/fold range he is trying to exploit?

If villian thinks you are a typical 1/2 player, then he should NEVER expect you to fold. Therefore when he basically clicks it back, he should be doing it because he has a huge hand.

Yah this is the only sticking point, but based on the following I think there may be some live reads/tells in play:

I'd expect even the most average of 2-5+ regs to gleefully flat most of his entire opening range in this spot, folding only a few hands, and having zero 4! bluffs.

5 bet shoving 88 seems pretty extreme to me here.

Why are we assuming this 4 bet range is capped at limited combos of QQ just because he opened to $16 and not $24? Why are we assuming that a 5/10 pro is capable of light 4 betting and spr manipulation, but is opening himself to an extremely easy to spot bet-sizing tell?

I think if V is anywhere near decent, he would abandon anything that resembles a light 4bet range vs hero, no? Unless I am missing history where Hero has been 3 betting light...

What do you guys think of his raise size? It was such a small raise.

Butting heads with a good / in control player OOP seems pretty unproductive. Plus flatting will most likely bring in a bunch of the fish where we can trivially setmine in a 6way pot. Trivial flat preflop, imo.

As played, trivial fold as we're not getting setmining odds, plus someone in a live game just 4bet a 3bettor.

Gyuck,imoG

My guess is that your question is with regards to him looking like he is allowing himself some room to fold to a 5bet.

My guess is it's more likely that he doesn't want KK to make a hero fold.

Gclueless4bettingnoobG