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Old 04-12-2018, 03:41 AM   #1
momo_uk
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1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

1/3, ABC game, $350 eff

Hero and V both perceive each other as tight/solid/reggish and have stayed out of each otherís way for the most part in the 12 hour history.

3 limps, Hero completes K3dd in SB, Tight V checks BB

Flop ($15): 8d 8s 2d
Checks to Old UTG who bets $20, Hero calls, V calls

Turn ($75): Td
Checks to Old UTG who bets $50, Hero min-raises to $100, V calls, UTG shows his cards to his neighbor and mucks in disgust

River ($325): 4s
Hero checks, V shoves $225, Hero ?

Last edited by momo_uk; 04-12-2018 at 03:53 AM.
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Old 04-12-2018, 04:49 AM   #2
spirit123
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Re: 1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

Sick spot.

When you raise the turn, you're letting V know you probably have a flush, and he still calls. At the very least he's letting you know he can beat 8x, which is the minimum you could have. So his range is weighted toward good flushes, boats, and the occasional 8x.

If I'm playing my A-game, I could probably find a hero fold here. His line is nutted almost every time.

Did you watch him when he was making the call OTT? How long did he take? Did he give off any sense of confusion or difficulty making a decision? Usually you can tell if someone is genuinely confused as to what to do.

Last edited by spirit123; 04-12-2018 at 05:05 AM.
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Old 04-12-2018, 05:41 AM   #3
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Re: 1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

Fold pre, raise ott is not good with the 5th nuts in a 5-way pot with another player to act, fold river
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Old 04-12-2018, 06:07 AM   #4
cantor1987
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Re: 1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

Why min raise turn and check back river?
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Old 04-12-2018, 06:50 AM   #5
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1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

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Originally Posted by cantor1987 View Post
Why min raise turn and check back river?

To keep worse hands (trips, worse flushes) in and maybe get information if I get shoved on?
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Old 04-12-2018, 06:56 AM   #6
cantor1987
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Re: 1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

So your raising for value so why not bet river yourself if u want calling off worse flushes and trips?
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Old 04-12-2018, 11:04 AM   #7
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Re: 1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

Looks like a b/f river spot to me. But AP, seems like a fold. V's hand looks like a boat for sure, most likely 22.
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Old 04-12-2018, 11:10 AM   #8
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

I probably nit fold preflop. The more I play, the more I kinda hate Kxs, especially OOP.

I might donk small on the flop myself as a semi-bluff steal.

Whenever I flop a monster or otherwise feel committed with a hand, I often suggest PSB+ing the flop, with the reasoning being that *no one* ever folds a draw on the flop. This is a pretty good example. OMC overbets $20 into $15 on a paired board and we happily throw in money. I fold. The board is paired so we likely don't have nearly as many outs as we think we do (and we don't know what his money card is), we're getting poor odds due to the overbet, there's a chance we're drawing dead (this is the optimum betsize if he has 22, BTW), plus it will be difficult to extract value when we hit OOP.

It's difficult extracting money OOP, but I think we have to go ahead and attempt it by donking the turn; this gets checked thru way too often. Alarm bells should be going off in our head when OMC continues 3ways on this turn; I think this is closer to a fold that it is a raise. Call to evaluate is likely much better, especially since it may bring along Villain with a worse hand (i.e. a much better way of attempting value rather than risking more money against OMC). When Villain calls the check/raise, more alarm bells should be going off.

I was done with the hand when Villain called the turn, and check/fold the river.

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Old 04-12-2018, 11:13 AM   #9
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Re: 1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

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Originally Posted by cantor1987 View Post
So your raising for value so why not bet river yourself if u want calling off worse flushes and trips?
His raise was for value against the OMC; when the Villain (who is not a moron) stays in the mix, our plan should change.

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Old 04-12-2018, 11:19 AM   #10
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Re: 1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

I feel like this might be a good spot for the call turn/donk river line, play like the OMCs.

As played, this river is kinda **** spot, as there's less than a PSB left but you're facing one of the nittier players in the game. K-high flush here is like Jacks preflop facing a tight 3-bet. There's no room to bet/fold, so you have to decide how villain would play a lower flush in this spot, and whether they could have it after flop/turn action.
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Old 04-12-2018, 12:34 PM   #11
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Re: 1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
His raise was for value against the OMC; when the Villain (who is not a moron) stays in the mix, our plan should change.

GcluelessNLnoobG
My bad I've misread hand I thought hero minraised and villain who bet 50 continued. Was going to say that we shouldn't be raising villain who bets 50 if it narrows his range to a range that has our hand crushed is what I was trying to get at. The cold call from other villain screams strength and once we check and he shoves I think we can fold
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Old 04-12-2018, 01:50 PM   #12
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Re: 1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

Pre is marginal at best. I'd always call at 1/2, but putting in 2 instead of 1 cuts much of the value.

Strongly consider folding the flop. Paired board reduces our chances of winning with the 2NF and reduces IO if we do hit it; we're getting less than 2:1; we're not closing the action; we're in lousy position. What GG said.

I don't like the turn minraise -- especially if we're not sure what to do if the rest of the money goes in. We can get value from smaller flushes and eights. We're losing to nut flushes, T8, TT, 88, 22, and 82 (the BB special). We're likely ahead when called and going to have trouble folding when behind. Just put in a normal raise and commit. If we were IP, I could see the minraise to freeze the action, but OOP that's not going to work. Note that our reluctance to just commit here highlights the weakness of the flop call.

Information has value, only if the information is sufficiently reliable, you know what to do with it, and it will change what you'd otherwise do. Those apply weakly or not at all here.

Not sure what the point of checking river was. If we're beat, it's prolly all going in. If we're ahead, V is very likely to check it back. If V is tight enough that he basically never bluffs the river or shoves with a smaller flush, obviously fold. OTOH, we acted weak, which may have given him more confidence his Q-high flush or whatever is good. Try not to induce action you don't know how to handle. I lean toward a fold against described V.
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Old 04-12-2018, 02:11 PM   #13
SwolyswoND
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Re: 1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

Don't go broke in limped pots without the nuts
Don't go broke in limped pots without the nuts
Don't go broke in limped pots without the nuts
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Old 04-12-2018, 02:12 PM   #14
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Re: 1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

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Originally Posted by cantor1987 View Post
So your raising for value so why not bet river yourself if u want calling off worse flushes and trips?

Wanted a call from the old UTG, not V in BB. This changed things a lot and Iím not sure if my hand is the best anymore. Perhaps, I should just have check/called turn.
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Old 04-12-2018, 02:19 PM   #15
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Re: 1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

What do you guys do if:

A) V shoved turn instead of cold-calling?

B) V bet $150 OTR?

C) V bet $100 OTR?
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Old 04-12-2018, 02:40 PM   #16
gobbledygeek
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Re: 1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

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Originally Posted by momo_uk View Post
What do you guys do if:

A) V shoved turn instead of cold-calling?

B) V bet $150 OTR?

C) V bet $100 OTR?
After our super strong turn action, I don't think any of these scenarios are much different; I'm done with the hand as soon as Villain continues.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 04-12-2018, 02:57 PM   #17
The Rumor
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Re: 1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

I really don't like the turn raise, as their continuing range should be pretty tight here. In a vacuum, the average player isn't betting an 8 when the front door flush hits, so I'm not enamored with raising when a good player called that flop and still has to act. He's going to play your raise perfectly.

I am trying to put myself in V's shoes. Did V expect Old Man to bet the turn? Because why would you check the turn once the flush hits if you have a boat? Maybe he planned to check/raise at some point, and your action made it so he figured he could just ship the river (or pray you'd bet into him anyway?) Ultimately, though, when he calls this turn, he's never expecting you to fold is my guess, which makes me think he's pretty darn strong. I think he had a little FPS with a good hand.

I do think V has the big blind special here a fair amount.

Last edited by The Rumor; 04-12-2018 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 04-12-2018, 03:07 PM   #18
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Re: 1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

My concern when calling flop against an old guy is if I’m even going to get paid if I hit. Now he’s shoving on us on a paired board. If he was simply over-valuing trips and was going for value I would expect a bet of something like $100.

The fact that he’s shoving means:

1. We took a weird line and he’s oblivious...possible but unlikely
2. He has a boat.
3 He just watched Ivey turn trips into a bluff against David Benyamine and thought this would be a good spot for it after your check.

Definitely going with option 2.

Probably fold pre and fold flop but it’s marginal. Call turn. You raise because you want to play for stacks, you raised then checked river which doesn’t make a ton of sense.

Last edited by Badreg2017; 04-12-2018 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 04-12-2018, 03:15 PM   #19
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Re: 1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

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My concern when calling flop against an old guy is if Iím even going to get paid if I hit. Now heís shoving on us on a paired board. If he was simply over-valuing trips and was going for value I would expect a bet of something like $100.

The fact that heís shoving means:

1. We took a weird line and heís oblivious...possible but unlikely
2. He has a boat.
3 He just watched Ivey turn trips into a bluff against David Benyamine and thought this would be a good spot for it after your check.

Definitely going with option 2.

Probably fold pre and fold flop but itís marginal. Call turn. You raise because you want to play for stacks, you raised then checked river which doesnít make a ton of sense.
old guy isn't the one going in. The better player who was sitting in the BB is. Old guy UTG folded.
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Old 04-12-2018, 03:38 PM   #20
snowman
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Re: 1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

there's an old web blogger
Tommy Angelo
who wrote an essay on how your bottom line increases dramatically
when you learn to find the fold button in the small blind

unraised pot pre BB could have anything
could be playing you not the cards
BUT you gotta fold
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Old 04-12-2018, 04:07 PM   #21
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Re: 1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

Once the tight villain calls on the flop the situation becomes much more complex. We hit our flush on the turn, you and villain both check, and old man UTG still puts a healthy bet in despite the turn card. More importantly, main villain calls between you and UTG.

If main villain is competent at all this is such a nutted line. Having the goods here himself is the easiest explanation for why he would feel comfortable flatting when he should have no idea whether UTG will jam now that hero has opened the betting. He's also check/called twice now and it's a paired board with a flush. Everything points to us being beat.

I'm not too much of a fan of the line as is. With two villains and the paired board I'd rather flat turn and get to showdown. As played I check/fold.
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Old 04-12-2018, 04:28 PM   #22
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Re: 1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

Don't raise turn
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:31 PM   #23
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Re: 1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

RESULTS:

Thanks for the input guys. I was actually the V a.k.a. BB in this hand with A7dd and was wondering if you guys would call my shove in this spot with a worse flush. And clearly, it seems not.

I actually bet $100 OTR and SB sigh-called.
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Old 04-16-2018, 01:02 PM   #24
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Re: 1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

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Originally Posted by SwolyswoND View Post
Don't go broke in limped pots without the nuts
Don't go broke in limped pots without the nuts
Don't go broke in limped pots without the nuts
Ignores the above, calls it off anyway because I'm a station. Some of the better players in my game will bluff here with the Ah, so I have to cry call.

As the hand is described, this is not a bluff. An ABC table/player cold calling a min-raise is the usually the nuts. Following it up with a jam is also the nuts. Nutted hand is the nuts, fold the second nuts. I see no reason for this player to get cute against you now when he has stayed out of your way for the previous 12 hours.

EDIT: I realize the nut flush is not the absolute nuts, but how much T8 is really in play here, given that OMC likely folded an 8x hand? Maybe he folded AA/KK, I suppose.
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Old 04-16-2018, 01:53 PM   #25
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Re: 1/3: 2nd nut flush facing shove OTR on paired board

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Originally Posted by dmccoy87 View Post
Ignores the above, calls it off anyway because I'm a station. Some of the better players in my game will bluff here with the Ah, so I have to cry call.

As the hand is described, this is not a bluff. An ABC table/player cold calling a min-raise is the usually the nuts. Following it up with a jam is also the nuts. Nutted hand is the nuts, fold the second nuts. I see no reason for this player to get cute against you now when he has stayed out of your way for the previous 12 hours.

EDIT: I realize the nut flush is not the absolute nuts, but how much T8 is really in play here, given that OMC likely folded an 8x hand? Maybe he folded AA/KK, I suppose.
It's a limped pot in 1/3 and V was in the BB. He has literally every boat combo out there in his range. 82o, 84o, T8o, 22, you name it.
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