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1/3 ~260 BB Deep Top Two, what did I do wrong? 1/3 ~260 BB Deep Top Two, what did I do wrong?

09-20-2016 , 01:17 PM
Hero is young asian kid in his 20s sitting on 1100 stack. Villain has 800, has been sitting down for 2 orbits, older african american gentleman with sunglasses and tattoos.

2 of his hands went to showdown where he won big pots, 9 9 3 10 5 board he has 33 in a limped pot got it in vs A9 on the turn. Another hand he flopped a set vs overpair and won that hand... so pretty standard stuff. A couple of other players on the table commented on how he had the hot seat.

Hero has been playing TAG and hasn't been out of line in the 2 orbits villain has been here.

Villain is cutoff and opens to $15, button calls, Hero is in the BB with KQ

(Pot $46) Flop KQ7

Hero bets $40. Villain raises to $140. Hero calls. At this point, I ranged villain on AA or AK and wanted to call to make it look like I had a flush draw, so I opted out of re-raising here and wanted to extract value from those hands. Also, since there is only 2 combos of QQ/KK exactly and 2 combos of 77, I thought there was a higher chance he had AA or AK.

(Pot $326) Turn KQ72

Hero checks. Villain bets $320. I'm 100% sure villain would not bet flush draws, so now he has to have KK, KQ, QQ, 77, AA, or AK. Again, I thought there were more combos of AA and AK than sets, so I went with it and called, planning to jam any river that wasn't an A, 7, or 5. I also have the K which makes it less likely villain has a flush draw.

(Pot $966) River KQ728
Villain has $325 left. Hero jams $325.

Spoiler:
Villain tanks for 3 minutes and finally calls and shows 77


What did I do wrong this hand? Any feedback is appreciated and thanks in advance.
1/3 ~260 BB Deep Top Two, what did I do wrong? Quote
09-20-2016 , 01:29 PM
Stacksizes matter and i like the option on delaying further bets to the turn but depending on the turn we may have difficult decisions here. Is the villain barrelheavy? The potsizebet on the turn as villain is gross. Jamming the turn since its already so much money in the pot if you decide you want to play for stacks


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1/3 ~260 BB Deep Top Two, what did I do wrong? Quote
09-20-2016 , 02:41 PM
As soon as the potential flush hits, all hands like 2 pair and sets and overpairs decrease in value dramatically. Its a scare card so you wont get paid. For that reason, its important to try to get money in before this happens if you think you're ahead, not to mention the possibility villain could have a flush ( but i agree that its unlikely he has it here).

On the flop, you only lose 5 hands: 1 combo of kk, 1 of qq and 3 combos of 77. You are a massive favorite here and very likely ahead. I probably reraise to 310 and shove all turns except maybe a 7.
Flatting the flop raise isnt terrible, but you really have to shove over his bet on the turn.
Just think; on the river he tank called with his set because the flush came. Do you really think he would have paid you off with just an overpair?
1/3 ~260 BB Deep Top Two, what did I do wrong? Quote
09-20-2016 , 03:35 PM
you didn't do anything wrong. when you flop top two on a non flushed, non straighted board, and your V has bottom set, that is a cooler.

only thing that you could have considered is that old black dudes NEVER bluff big, so when he pops it for 320 on the turn, he either has AA, or you are beat. he is never going to bet AK, or even KQ like this.

to give you an example of how conservative your V plays, look at the incredible price he was getting on the river and he just about folded. That should tell how strong his hand was when he bombed the turn.

but it's a cooler. you shouldn't look at this hand as having any mistakes.
1/3 ~260 BB Deep Top Two, what did I do wrong? Quote
09-20-2016 , 05:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VQ37
Also, since there is only 2 combos of QQ/KK exactly and 2 combos of 77, I thought there was a higher chance he had AA or AK.
grunch. Worth checking the math on this, you say "I thought" repeatedly when referring to combos when we can just calculate it and find out. (Villain could have KQ for value also)

AA - 6
AK - 6 offsuit, 2 suited = 8
KK - 1
QQ - 1
77 - 3
KQ - 3 offsuit, 1 suited
Total: 22

So yes - you're beat by 5 / 22 combos, split 3 / 22. You're winning or chopping 72% of the time if villain always raises AA or AK. I'm questioning this assumption, though - will villain always raise with an overpair or TPTK? If they are the type to do this, I'd assume they also cbet often, in which case I'd like to check-raise instead of donking flop. You said he won the hand when he played set vs overpair...was he doing the betting and raising?
1/3 ~260 BB Deep Top Two, what did I do wrong? Quote
09-20-2016 , 05:09 PM
The only thing you did wrong was not shoving turn.
1/3 ~260 BB Deep Top Two, what did I do wrong? Quote
09-20-2016 , 05:23 PM
Preflop: I actually think you could potentially squeeze this to something like $65, although flatting is fine too.

Flop: I don't like leading the flop here. I would definitely prefer you go for a check-raise instead. You should expect the villain to Cbet this flop a very large percentage of the time (all flush draws, open enders, Kx hands are Cbetting this... even Qx hands and gutshots will Cbet this flop quite a lot), so it's perfect for a check-raise.

I also disagree with the range you've assigned the villain for raising the flop and barreling the turn. I think he's far more likely to raise the flop with AsJs, AsTs and JsTs than he is with AK and AA. I think that the latter two hands will generally flat your $40 donk bet, especially being this deep-stacked. However, there's also the chance that he's raising the flop with any AsXs hand or any JTs hand, of which case you're still doing fine. After donking and being raised, I would honestly just 3bet get it in, since you're still doing just fine here.

Turn: As played, just check-shove here. There's a chance he's semi-bluffing a draw and wants to make himself look pot-committed. You only lose to 5 combos and you're chopping with 4 combos, so you have to get it in here.

River: As played, good shove.

Bad luck on the outcome. You were losing your stack regardless. You can't get away from top 2 pair vs bottom set, especially on such a draw-heavy board.
1/3 ~260 BB Deep Top Two, what did I do wrong? Quote
09-21-2016 , 03:58 PM
Preflop is pretty debatable. Normally I'd instamuck KQo to a raise, especially OOP, especially against a guy playing standard. But with big stacks behind (a lotta room to play postflop), a discount in the BB, a perhaps (?) ABCish player postflop, and possibly (?) a wider CO opening range, I'd guess continuing in some manner might not be horrible. But honestly, defaulting to a fold here ain't horrible, imo.

On the flop, the SPR is a huge ~18 or so and stacks are deep. This guy would probably have to be semi-******ed to get in a very big $800 stack with worse. So my goal is to not play for stacks postflop. I'd probably check the flop and go from there, and if he bets, I'd just be in check/call mode on the turn. If he checks the turn back, I'd lead the river for a second street of value. If he bets both the flop/turn and the board runs out safe, I might just donk the river to make sure a bet goes in (probably folding to a raise).

Not in love with our flop donk as it might lose a lotta hands / air that we want a bet or two out of later. Plus it puts us in a really gross spot if raised, as now the pot is getting a lot bigger and stacks start coming into play (something I don't want). I really really hate facing the flop raise on this board, and against ABC players might even begin exitting here.

As played, I probably exit on the turn. In my game, ABC players simply don't get in $800 stacks without nuttish hands, and that is obviously what he is attempting to do with a huge PSB on this drawy board. Even AA is freaked out about KQ and sets here.

On the river, we simply don't have enough to get him off the hand (if we're bluffing) as he'll be getting 4:1 to call. There's also the chance he flopped a monster draw and got there.

Overall (without reading the results yet), we played a monster huge pot with a very mediocre hand having gotten in just 2% of stacks preflop, which is usually a big mistake (imo).

ETA: Results-wise, he ended up showing up with a hand that was easily in the top three of hands that he typically has here. This isn't much of a surprise given the way the hand played out, especially postflop where huge money was being put in.

ETA#2: As I often am, I am completely out-of-step with the other responses. Getting in 267bb stacks against a guy playing standard having only gotten in 2% of our stack preflop on this board is absolutely not a cooler, imo; it's really bad play.

ETA#3: Next time you play, take notice of how many players get in $800 with AA/AK/draw, even on a draw heavy board like this one. If you play in a $300 max BI game like I do, the answer is: almost never (seriously). And even if you do see it occasionally (with my guess being you'll very rarely see that opponent ever play again as he'll be too broke to play), ask yourself if this is that guy (cuz it certainly doesn't sound like him).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 09-21-2016 at 04:09 PM.
1/3 ~260 BB Deep Top Two, what did I do wrong? Quote

      
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