Had a very rough session this past weekend at a couple very juicy tables. Below are a couple of big hands. Just want to see if they are standard or if I misplayed any / spewed. Hopefully I don’t get in trouble of the despised 3-hands in 1 thread post.






Hand 1:
Earlier in evening:

V1 (BB) $1k - is a thinking player but is honestly a station and seems a tad spewey. Was talking about jungleman earlier and how sick he is. (is this relevant…?). Have not seem him lead turn like he does in this hand.

Hero (BTN) $1k - has a TAG image and has built stack up by flopping a set vs. 2 people with top pair among other small-ish pots.

4 limpers.
Hero limps BTN w/ 5d6d (meh)
SB/BB also limp in. 7-way

Flop (~$20): Qd9d2d
Checks to hero who bets $15. V1 calls. Rest all fold.

Turn ($50): 6h
Villain leads $40. Hero calls.

River ($130): 4s
Villain bets $60
Hero calls or raise?




Hand 2:
Later in the evening.

Very loose action table. Few drunk people. Hero just table changed 20 minutes ago.
V1 – BB looks like an Asian flava flav. ~$1.2k
Hero UTG+1 $650

Hero raises to $15 w/ 77
5 callers including V1 in BB.


Flop 5h7d8d (~$90)
Hero bets $65
Folds around to V1 who raises to $150
Hero jams





Hand 3:

Late night. Also rather loose action table, but very soft.

Hero has a TAG image but has had a bluff shown.

V1 (~$1.5k) – CO is drunk and stuck. Still semi-thinking (gave some speech about how this guy had the Qd and how the Qd is a good card because it blocks blah blah)

V2 (~$1.2k) – Button. Here with her husband on our table. In the hand that I bluffed, she limped UTG w/ TT, CO raised, and I 3! on the button and she tank folded pre-flop. Flop came AxTx4x and she asked me if she can flip a card after I made the other guy fold. She turned a 5c and told me she had TT. Overall she has been really friendly and just having a good time. Not a total fish but not solid either (obv limping TT)

Hero (~$600) – BB

V1 raises to $12 from CO. V2 calls.
Hero with AcAs 3! to $60.
V1 calls. V2 says “ok I have a good feeling about this” and calls.


Flop 9c9s3c. ($~180)
Hero bet $120
V1 folds.
V2 says “should I call, fold, or raise….” And makes it $250
Hero jams.

I’m unsure of my play in this one. My thought process was that, while V2 is unlikely to bluff here, I have shown a bluff that semi-tilted her (however she is not visibly tilted and has been friendly and chatting with me all night). However, I felt like if I’m folding AA here then I am just folding all my hands as I never have 33 and I have SOME like T9s semi bluffs preflop but not enough to call here. I felt like I could fold a lot of TT-QQ hands and call KK+. However, in retrospect, obviously all AA are not the same here and maybe I can find folds with the Ac in my hand which is a huge amount of her semi-bluffs (if she has any at all). Given stack sizes, is calling even an option?



Thanks all.

Hand 1 I think you have to call down w/ a read that he is spewy. Getting a good price.

Hand 2 Yeah, easy jam. Even if he only raises two pairs, sets, and straights we have 48% equity vs that range despite the fact that we're only good 22% of the time amusingly enough. Which would be the argument for flat calling.

Hand 3 Actually I kind of like of fold with the speeches and the fact you only have $420 left before calling. It sounds like she's pretty passive so she's unlikely to be doing this with a pair or anything we beat. Don't get me wrong it's exploitable, but I think it's a good fold.

1St hand I would raise, see this line with ad in his hand and a pair quite often, don't know why villans like this line but it seems to be coming more common. Raising for value here, we could raise the turn for value. Which is probably what I would do.
2nd hand is well played.
3Rd hand is tough when we jam flop we can only be called by a nine so not a massive fan of that. I would call and check to him on the turn, this leaves all his bluffs in, and then call turn bet, ir jam over the turn bet depending on spr.... If he checks back turn, we can pretty comfortably bet river for value.

Hand 1: If you wanted to raise do it on the turn. Villain's river bet seems more blocker then value but your flush is too low for a raise. If villain had a big hand they would have bet more on river, they are either setting a trap with a big flush or has a hand that will fold to a raise. Villain has to be real stationary before I think raising is good.

Hand 2: Looks good. High variance spot because villain can have a straight but your hand is too good to give up when villain can be drawing multiple ways also.

Hand 3: Tough spot but the speech is a bad sign and I probably find a fold.

Preflop it's a bad idea to raise to around 10% of your stack because it gives villain's too good of odds to set mine while making it hard to get away from your hand. Either make a smaller raise so you have some maneuvering room post flop or raise bigger to kill their odds. Either make it $40 or $75+.

Hand 1: I'd just flat. A bit dubious you're getting paid off on a raise even when ahead.

Hand 2: Looks fine.

Hand 3: Gross spot. I guess I like folding but I'd want to be there and get a feel for it.

h1: Pre is fine. I like a raise/fold on the turn. As played, I think we can raise/fold river for value, but I don't blame you if you just called.

h2: wp

h3: meh - annoying spot. I think jamming flop is the worst option though. Vs some villains we can fold, vs some I call. Vs this villain it feels like a fold, even though it sucks.

Hand 1 - calling is fine in a 7-way limped pot, especially if V is unlikely to pay off a raise with worse. What's he calling with if you raise, 2p? I'd probably just call and move on to the next hand. V probably folds all non-flushes to a river raise in a limped 7-way pot if they're any good. If you had something like J-high flush I'd be more likely to raise.

Hand 2 - close between a flop shove and calling and getting it in on most turn cards. This also allows you to see what V does in relation to different turn cards. If he has some type of OESD/gutter/FD/99/TT hand, you don't want him to fold flop, and you definitely want him to bomb brick turns, so in position I'd lean towards calling instead of shoving and let V make the mistake on the turn since he's OOP.

Hand 3 - Flop bet is too big, I'd bet smaller with my entire range here, and especially with aces where there are zero bad turn cards. We don't want V folding smaller pairs or ace high. Definitely wouldn't shove flop since you probably only get called by 9x and maybe KK/QQ, but KK/QQ seem extremely unlikely with the preflop action. You're either way ahead or way behind on this flop, do you think V is going to put in $600 with a hand like 88 or TT? Same scenario as hand 2 - if you call flop, you are forcing V to make the mistake on the turn with those hands instead of letting them fold those hands to a 3b flop shove.

How much would you be betting if you had AK/AQ/KQ/etc on this flop? Probably like $75 I would guess...

+ 100 WJ94.

Hand 1 Call - too much equity in hand. V could be value betting worse hand (AQ or Set) or bluffing a percentage of time.

Hand 2- I would of played it the same way. You have a Set and you got it all in!! Plus you to put pressure on drawing hands.

Hand 3. Call.
V has over pair to board...or could be playing your stack looking for fold with AK type hands...If V made a Set of 9s -'so be it.

(I like WJ94 analysis of not betting so much - I also Over bet AA in fear of getting them cracked and blowout lower pairs and Ax. My Nitty side).


Good Luck.

Hand 1 call AINEC. Not getting paid by worse.

Hand 2 I like. Too many action killing turn cards.

Hand 3 is gross, but jamming seems awful. I think I call and GII on the turn, unless live reads make me want to fold.

H1:

Preflop is whatever. We have RIO issues, but we're also in position with huge stacks, so we shouldn't get ourselves into too much difficulty (i.e. simply don't play for stacks unless we're nutted and play a medium sized pot otherwise). I'm fine with the overlimp.

I'm fine with flop bet sizing.

I'm fine with turn flat. We could be behind, we could be ahead, whatever, we don't want to raise and possibly put huge stacks in play (or possibly get blown off the best hand in a decent pot). I'm probably just going to station down in position and see if I'm good.

River is interesting decision, imo. Villain did call the flop bet in the BB with the world to react after him, so this is kinda strong. His most likely hands are busted draws, two pair / set, or a flush. The busted draw ain't going to call a raise, but *might* bluff reraise (I actually ran into a 3bet bluff raise on the river my last session out, it happens). Since he's a calling station, the two pair / set will most likely call a small minish type raise, but maybe not. The flush will call or raise, and it's unlikely he has a smaller one. Overall, the more aggro / in love with sick Jungleman he is, the more I just call; the more passive ABC payoff stationy he is, the more I'm fine with a raise to like $130 to fold. I probably lean towards just calling.

GcluelessNLnoobG

H2:

I don't understand preflop at all. Our preflop raise has no FE whatsoever at this table, and now we set things up where stacks are in play postflop (and if anyone good is getting in their stack postflop, our set of sevens can easily be on the bad side of a "cooler"). I open limp (although I think folding is fine too).

One of those action flops where people are unlikely to fold a draw on the flop. SPR is 7. We could either PSB/PSB/shove, which is fine; I have zero clue why we are betting so little into this board where no draw is folding, just PSB+ this thing, heck I'd go $100, especially at loose action drunk tables. Another option is to attempt to get this over in 2 streets, and with this board I think we're fine with that idea, so we could check/raise the flop to setup a turn shove.

As played, I also jam. Preflop set things up where we have to play for stacks postflop, but 77 ends up on the bad side of a cooler often in these cases.

GcluelessNLnoobG

If you aren't raising pocket pairs in 1/2 and 1/3 games where you are unlikely to get 3b pre, you are losing a ton of money IMO. Even when someone 3b, they usually just have QQ+ so it's easy game. Little tougher to raise EP with smaller pairs in 2/5 since you're much more likely to get 3b by a wider range.

H3:

FWIW, I would probably open limp TT in EP at this table too with these stacks; heck, I'd probably have a 0% raising range at this table in EP, but I suck at deepstack.

In order to prevent ~setmining odds, we're going to have to 3bet preflop to about $90ish. The problem with this huge raise is that it'll most likely scare everyone away. The problem with the 3bet to $60 is that it'll setup a HU SPR pot of 4 (i.e. we won't be able to fold postflop), but at the same time it offers fairly decent ~setmining odds of ~13:1, which I believe are just too good to offer. The other alternative is to flat. We'll be closing the action so we know we'll only be going 3way, and flatting will create a very easy-to-manage SPR of 16 where AA plays just fine. Unless we're cool with most likely taking down $25 preflop with a big raise, I'd just flat preflop.

As played, SPR is 3 on this flop. I mean, we should seem pretty committed. The only problem is that unless we're bluffing (which it sounds like it could be) our hand looks pretty face up here, and yet passive her who limp/folded TT preflop seems to be cool with playing for $600 stacks here. She did flat the first raise, so passive her could have an overpair. 99/33 would probably always just flat. Which means we're only beaten by a random 9x. I also jam before a scare card comes to convince her to fold her KK-TT.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Thanks for all the responses.

Hand 1 - I also called but honestly feel villain would call a raise with 2p+, which is why I heavily contemplated a raise and also was not sure if I should raise his turn lead. Haven't seen him do that in this type of situation (x/c flop, lead turn blanks) an so didn't know what to make of it. Pretty damn hard to flop a flush, let alone flop flush over flush.



Hand 2 - seems pretty standard to me. I see merit to just calling and then getting it on most turns but just seems like too many turns that I don't want to see. One of those spots where as long as he doesnt have 88, then I have decent equity vs almost anything.



Hand 3 - in retrospect I agree jamming is bad. However, given how passively she played her TT she might have TT-QQ here, but even IF she does, I'm guessing she would not raise. Agree jamming almost always gets called by 9x exclusively, especially if I have Ac blocking the only obvious semi-bluffs. My thought was if I call this raise, what do I do on like all turns?

I'm not worried about being 3bet.

I'm just wondering what the point is? We went *six* ways to the flop OOP (standard in the games I play). What's the point of raising if all we're doing is setmining? All it does is setup stacks to be played for, and with smaller sets we often don't want to play for stacks if anyone non-******ed also wants to get their stack in.

And in smaller stack games (admittedly, this game does not look to be one), there's no reason to build a pot preflop to play if we can still likely play for stacks in an unraised pot with a set.

GimoG

yeah i agree with this for the most part - and I think bet sizing pre and post flop were my biggest questions in this hand, because in retrospect, I knew jamming was not good.




GG I'm sorry but I really can't understand how you would ever just fold 77. Limp/call is obviously ok in most situation to set mine, but theres no way in 1000 years I'm open folding 77 on a soft $1/3 table 200 bb deep. Raising is fine because I won't get 3! too light even though the table is action-y, and raising folds out marginal hands from a lot of the non-action players, and keeps the few action players in.

The thing is, I understand you play poker by SPR, and that your game always goes 1000 ways preflop, but not all games are like that. While this was a loose table and had many chances to go 5-6 way to flop, it would also often go 3-way, which is fine as PFR w/ a hand as strong as 77

Who says we are just set mining when raising 77? You can have AA here and it can still go 6 ways to the flop, you can't control how many people are going to call. More likely it will go 2-4 ways to the flop and 77 is just fine to have in a raised pot postflop on many boards. People play so passively at 1/2 and 1/3 that you will rarely ever get yourself into tough spots, especially if you are deep stacked.

You aren't going to win big pots flopping a set in a limped pot because you're either going to have to cooler someone or any hand that puts in a bunch of money vs your set is going to be a big draw or already got there. Raised pots will play totally differently. If you aren't raising small pairs pre, it's going to be a lot easier for anyone that doesn't suck to know when you've flopped a set too because your range will be so narrow when you start piling money in. When you raise pre and flop a set, you can still have a ton of other hands that are barreling a lot of boards, so they can't just say "well GG's got a set cuz he limped pre and c/r flop, guess I'll just fold here"

Here's the deal: you just lost 200bbs with a set of sevens, and you probably played it just fine postflop. You're going to have to flop a *****load of sets and get paid off to start making up for that loss, and all the other losses you accumulate with setmining (the other times you flop a set and lose your stack, the times you call a raise multiway and fold the flop UI, the times you lose a little bit postflop when you don't flop a set, the times you flop a set and no money goes in postflop, etc.). I could boil my whole breakeven year to date (admittedly, only a lol 118 hours) to one thing: the losses I've accumulated setmining (see above) [ETA: inb4 "two things, you suck"]. 77 OOP in EP just ain't a huge money maker; it's *fine* open folding it. And interestingly enough, it probably plays better in a shorter game, because in a deeper game, unless your opponents are ******ed, when someone gets in 200bbs they often have your set of sevens beat (unlike when you are 75bbs deep in a limped pot where this type of money is easily gotten in).

Would I open it fold it at a table like this with drunks that will hopefully payoff if I hit? Nope. But it still isn't this massive money maker you think it is, and in fact can cause you a *lot* of money in the short term before (hopefully) ekeing out a meagre profit with it long term.

Gsetminingishard,imoG

Do you think any of this (possibility of smallway pot to a raise, hand reading skillz of opponents, etc.) is applicable at *this* table?

GIdon'tG

Sure, you just have to adjust the ranges that other people are playing to be a lot wider if everyone is gambling it up, which makes a pair of 7's even more valuable. It's pretty hard to make a pair.

I also have my own theorem that the vast, vast majority of players are incapable of c/r on connected boards with anything less than a straight or set in most scenarios.

Have to disagree. It would be hard to get 200bbs in when we're ahead if this was a limped pot, but this went 6 ways. Thats $90 in there. People arent oblivious to this - they want whats in the middle. A simple bet, bet, bet line gets it in. Great spot for us preflop, even oop. Sure, we can lose, but usually thats being mubsy. Even in this spot we were a 2-1 dog when the money went in - not all that terrible.

We do very well against 5 other hands when we hit our set. If we dont hit, we check fold a lot, nbd imo

How valuable is a non-setted 77 a 6way pot? Pretty much useless, no?

Keep in mind, this table has seen a 7way limped pot, a 6way raised pot, and a 3way 3bet pot. Best hand wins always at this table, and UI 77 is almost never going to be that.

GimoG

Did we know the hand was going to have 5 callers? Does every hand go 6 ways to the flop? That's no different than saying we shouldn't raise AA UTG because 6 people will call and someone will outflop us or outdraw us. If that many people call, one pair isn't going to win the hand that often regardless of what it is, but we can't assume 5 people will call and we can most definitely assume that if we flop a set at the drunk/action table we're going to get rich.

Basically their ranges are making a lot of medium hands, often, while we are making a strong hand occassionally, which crushes their range consisting mostly of medium strength hands.
If you think this is a bad spot for hero, that automatically means its a good spot for someone else, or other people collectively. Who is this good for? The guys that will flop tp often? dont think so. Guys that flop draws with 25% equity or less? Not if we bet properly post flop. Sure, once in a blue moon we'll flop an under set to another set, but thats pretty insignificant with how rarely it happens