Hi all,

Effective stack is V and he has about 245 to start the hand

V: middle aged guy moderately weak tight. Saw him 4 bet light once tho with an ace blocker

H: playing very tight overall. But winning lots of pots plying in position

OTTH: V raises to 12 UTG+1 the button calls SB calls and I call in the B.B.

(48) Flop: J72we check he bets 35 two other players fold and we jam.

Thoughts on this line?

Nice hand

We're getting a decent price preflop but being OOP sucks and we do have some RIO in multiway pots (depending on how weak vs strong the callers are), so it's a little meh but not horrible, imo.

I'd play the flop the same way. We have decent hand equity, and even a little bit of FE makes this a profitable play. I guess the question is whether it is more EV than calling; I would guess it is since we don't necessarily get paid off when we hit our more obvious draws (especially difficult OOP) and we might not even get to see a river if he bets enough on the turn.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Nice hand. Preflop is borderline, potentially bad depending on the stacks & type of opponents the other two are.

If you decided to call flop, it should definitely be with a plan to be aggressive on cards that appear good for us and/or bad for villain. I would lead small (50-55) on turned flushes, and check when we turn a straight or the turn bricks. I would lead out with a large bet OTT (90-105) on A-Q and T/9 turns, mostly check J turns but betting is viable depending on what Jx hands we think he raises pre.

I'm probably c/r to ~$110 and calling a shove, but shoving as you did is also fine I guess. Nice hand.

Fold pre

Calling pre-flop is definitely a leak. Without any other info, it's a fold.

However, you don't mention our stack, and what the effective stacks of the other V's are in the hand. If we're say $450+ effective with BTN and SB, or $600+ eff with one of them, then I think I like a 3-bet pre.

Wat @ "fold pre" or thinking pre is even remotely close. Madness. Mega standard +EV call.

SPR < 5, multi-way, out of position, ten-high.

Good luck

I don’t think pre is a major leak or anything, sweet hand to play multi-way. However being OOP and <100BBs effective probably makes this a fold.

Once we flop a big draw like this I think any option other than folding is + EV. I prefer playing these aggro and getting it in ASAP.

I don't like this advice cuz it put's us in a super awkward spot if we miss the turn.

I went all in to put maximize any fold equity I have and make him risk his whole stack

get real

If you had floppped a set would you prefer to c/shove or c/r to 110? I don’t think it makes that much difference in terms of FE, and I will shove any turn card. Perhaps it even maximizes your FE by betting flop and turn.

This question is for everyone chuckling at "fold pre"

-T9s sucks as a one-pair hand. Easily dominated. Often dominated. Often outdrawn.

-The odds of flopping 2 pair or better are 18 to 1. Those are the minimum required implied odds for you to break even. I like profit, so I would be looking for more than 18 to 1. I'd also want to compensate for the times that I make 2 pair and lose, and the times I make a straight and lose, and the times I make a flush and lose. So double it. I'm only calling here with 36 to 1 implied odds. It's $9 for us to call preflop, so $9 x 36 = $324. There is currently $39 in the pot, so we need villain to have $285 at a minimum. He's short of that number.

-Your most likely hand after the flop is a draw. You're unlikely to successfully semi-bluff 3 people. You'd need one of the other players to thin the field for you, which means he has a hand. That means the money will go in with you as an underdog. Maybe you get find some slightly +EV bluffing situations, but with 3 players, it will be rare. T9s connects with all the cards 6 through K. That means someone else will probably connect with the board too.

So you have an easily dominated, often outdrawn, long-shot hand with minimal opportunity for profitable bluffing. The math is clear. Unless you're playing with some kind of non-52 card deck in your games, and the math is different, there is absolutely no logical justification for flat calling this raise.

What's your argument for calling?

I can’t tell if this is a troll or not.

I’m in the B.B. getting a good price while closing the action. If I’m not defending this hand in the B.B. what hands should I be defending?

Easily okay with playing this multi way as it’s very easy to realize my equity

Confident enough to play this post flop

It's not. Everything in that post is factual. You haven't responded to any of it. When will you contend with the mathematical reality here?

Define "good price". As I've clearly demonstrated, the implied odds here are garbage.

How much does this really matter? Do you see a lot of limp/3betting in your min-stakes games?

Against a weak-tight opener from UTG+1, I like this range...
99-22,AQs-A2s,KJs+,QJs,ATo+,KJo+,QJo
That's about 15% of hands. Even that might be too wide. I might think about dropping the middle suited Aces.

The SPR is going to be <5. That's really the main consideration here. I want hands that can function well as top pair, since commitment decisions are going to come early in this hand.

K9 suited is a better candidate for calling here than T9s. Would you call with K9suited?

Why? explain, in detail, using math, facts and logic, why this comes "easily" for you. What magic power do you have that overcomes your lousy hand and lousy position?

LOL, what do you think your equity is here? Hint: It's likely less than 25%. Yet you've invested 25% of the pot. Realizing your equity is -EV. To make money with this hand...you need to OVER-realize your equity.

To do that, you really need the betting lead. Deeper stacked, this hand is a mandatory 3-bet. But with only 80BB's, it's garbage.

You're not good enough to overcome the math here man. You're just not.

Playing this hand PF just depends if you're LAG or TAG, no? If you're TAG, fold. If you're LAG, call/low frequency 3-bet

I'm really not trying to tangle with every single poster here, but I'm afraid I feel compelled to chime in here as well.

Defining yourself as LAG or TAG is not the right way to be thinking about poker. Your playing style should be changeable so you can adapt to the playing styles and tendencies of your opponents. Against loose-passives, TAG crushes. Against LAGs, station it up. Against TAGs, change gears and give them LAG headaches.

A really good TAG would fold here. But so would a good LAG.

If we were deeper, a good TAG would probably still fold. But a good LAG will pretty much always raise.

Only a fish calls here, at any stack depth.

You make many good points in your posts, some of which I agree with. I already said preflop is a very borderline decision, likely to be made worse depending on the other players' stacks.

But, these generalities at the end are hilariously bad. The idea that a good LAG will "pretty much always raise" if the stacks are deeper, and only a fish calls at any stack depth are both quite simple to pick apart, it doesn't take much thought at all. For the LAG assertion, I'm not making a 3bet here in general, but especially not if I consider my opponent(s) to have rather tight/strong ranges, or are unable to find the fold button preflop.

Overall there's not enough information about this hand to claim who should do what with T9s preflop. What we do know is we are getting ~4.3 to 1 pot odds preflop, closing the action. We know we have good relative position on the likely flop bettor, which is good for our hand. We know we cover V2 who started with ~245, and we will have a SPR of just under 5 on the flop against him. For some, that's enough info to call. But I'd rather know more information before I judged the merit of the preflop decision.

The game is actually pretty easy.
Borderline between what and what?
Oh Jeeeeeeezus here we go.
Lay it on me professor.
Good, 'cause I'm tired.
It's highly unlikely that a sufficiently sized 3-bet in a deep stacked hand would get called in all 3 places. Even if you get one guy to fold, your equity and post-flop bluffing opportunities increase massively.

And it's ok if V can't find the fold button. That's actually plan A. We want him to put money in the pot so we can steal it later. To do that, we need the betting lead and a hand that flops well enough to generate many steal-opportunities.

And if you're worried about strong ranges...that's an argument for folding. The proper response to a strong range is NOT to passively put in money with a weak holding from out of position. Where did you learn that?

Also, you never mentioned the TAG assertion? Are we in agreement there?

you know, the "AG" in LAG/TAG doesn't stand for "call"
False. There most certainly is enough information. You know stack sizes, SPR, and the odds of making certain holdings on the flop. That's enough to know that calling is -EV.
Can you explain why 4.3 is good?
Why is he the likely bettor? he's described as weak-tight. To me that says he won't bet unless he hits. And most flops miss most hands.
Why would that be good for our hand? When a weak tight player bets into 3 people, we're almost always going to be behind.
Why are you saying this? that's just word salad man. Why is an SPR of 5 good for our hand? (hint: It really isn't!!) (2nd hint: Our position makes it worse!!!)
For losing players you mean.
The only missing information are the other two villain's stacks. And I've already stated that if they each have $450+, or if one of them has $600+, then a 3-bet is appropriate.

I can't think of any reasonable situation where I would just flat call with this hand from this position. it's one of the worst hands that we would even consider calling with.....which makes it an excellent candidate for a bluff!! We just need to be deeper.

It's hilarious that you put words in my mouth. I just mention all the stuff we know about the preflop decision and you are firing off nonsensical babble. Not sure why I wasted my time.

Translation: "Mr. Owl, everything you said is right."

Apology accepted.

My post was full of QUESTIONS. Rather than give answers you accuse me of putting words in your mouth. Does not compute. The whole point of a question is to get YOU to say the words

Call pre is standard. Idk what RagingOwl is on about. I might be -EV if your opponents are Phil Ivey, Patrik Antonius, and Phil Galfond but I assume we have some ability to play Poker post flop in which case this is a good hand to have in our preflop defense range so that we can show up with a variety of hands post flop and have strong hands on many different boards.


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No. fold or 3-bet is standard. If you're good that is.

Are you serious bro? Did I not put enough words up above? It's all there dude.

Study SPR sir. We do not have very much ability to play poker post-flop. Not very much ability at all. Our position makes it exceedingly worse.

There are better hands.

Why is this good? Answer this question and you'll start to see "what I'm on about". Why do we want a variety of hands?

Personally, I just want the winning hands. We want hands that can commit stacks post-flop when the SPR is 5. That's gonna be one and two-pair hands. T9 functions terribly in that regard. Do you disagree with that?

I'm honestly stunned how much pushback I'm getting on this, and kinda disappointed by how little of it contains anything factual, logical, or carefully reasoned. I'm just hearing generic platitudes like "yeah, duhhh, most everybody calls with T9". Well guys, most everybody loses money at this game. So chew on that.

Maybe this works as a strategy if you never play against the same people, but when people see that you c/jam with your combo draws and c/r to 95 with your sets then you're going to start getting snapped off by A3ss against people who pay attention. Overall, you obviously have enough equity to just be like, **** it I jam, but I don't think this is a good mindset to have if your goal is to move up in stakes.