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Old 12-08-2014, 01:26 PM   #1
tonic1223
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1/2nl : Turn boat, how to get most value?

Hero:mid 20's male in a hoodie. Playing very tag, on tighter side because there's 5 stacks over 300bb and raise sizes are $15-$25 for them.

2 limps to me($175) in hj and I raise to $10 with Ah3h, 1limper call, others fold.
Villain in this hand has been stacked twice already in the hour I've been at the table. He can't fold TP.
Flop Ac9d3c. (Pot $20) I cbet $15, he calls. I put him on Ax, clubs, some 9x.
Turn 3s (Pot $50) he check, I bet $25 he x/r to $50.
Shove or call? $125 in pot I have $125 behind
I know this spot may seem like it plays itself, but am I leaving money on the table by shoving and getting him to lay down possible bluffs or pair+clubs?
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Old 12-08-2014, 02:24 PM   #2
DeathCabForTootie
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Re: 1/2nl : Turn boat, how to get most value?

Since he can't fold TP and he's not going to fold 3x, just GII.
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Old 12-08-2014, 02:37 PM   #3
IPlayNLHE
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Re: 1/2nl : Turn boat, how to get most value?

I flat because you have position so stacks can GII on river no problem and also keeps bluffs in his range
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Old 12-08-2014, 03:34 PM   #4
HH2010
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Re: 1/2nl : Turn boat, how to get most value?

Fold pre since you aren't deep enough and position is good but not great. If you were to play it, then limp pre... A3s is a very weak hand to isolate with, much more value playing multi-way for cheap.

As played, this is an interesting spot to maximize value. If we were deeper it is a trivial re-raise, but with these effective stacks I am tempted to flat call and raise all in on the river.

Only problem with that line is that the club kills our action. V's range is value heavy, he's never bluffing or semi-bluffing on the turn (looks a lot like A9 or K3s). Whereas if we call this raise, we look a lot like having a flush draw. He's liable to check/fold river if the club hits. On the same token, he seems to like his hand a lot right now and I bet he will put more money in on the turn.

I might actually suggest raising like $50 on top. That is a very callable bet size and not as scary as an all-in shove. And that way your river bet should be a pretty easy call for him based on pot odds, even if the club hits.

I would not have taken this line in the heat of action, but thinking through the hand I think that makes sense.
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Old 12-08-2014, 03:50 PM   #5
Nozsr
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Re: 1/2nl : Turn boat, how to get most value?

^ Fifty now and the rest on the river is a good compromise.

Fifty now won't fold him out, in the extremely unlikely event he has air we won't get any more from him no matter what we do.
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Old 12-08-2014, 03:54 PM   #6
THOFF
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Re: 1/2nl : Turn boat, how to get most value?

I don't really think it matters, but I'm just going to call. This min raise is meant to look really strong, so probably a 3. A little more info on the guy would be useful. Would he always raise 99 pre or is he the type of player to limp those types of hands? The fact that he is stuck and the fact that you say he can't fold top pair makes me actually want to just call more, because since this looks like a 3, and we have one, it's just kind of less likely he has the case 3 so I'd rather leave any possible bluffs in his range. Some bad but somewhat thinking players (especially ones who think they are running bad or have been stacked multiple times) might not put you on a 3 because of your raise preflop and try to get way too tricky with a bluff designed to look strong.

As played, I would call. If a club comes and it scares him, he's still not folding anything that he could have been value raising on the turn if you say he can't fold top pair.

On another note, if you're going to raise A 3 suited in late position (which I wouldn't here) I would probably make it similar to what I would raise if I had stronger hands like AK or big pairs, probably to 16 since we have two limpers. The reason for this is that you're probably not going to hit flops very often, and when you do, you could often be up against sets or hands like A 10 or even A J that will often limp in 1 - 2 games. So I would try to balance with these hands so that on good flops you can often take it down with a c-bet, or you can give up if you get played back at. That's if you're going to raise, which you probably shouldn't
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Old 12-08-2014, 04:37 PM   #7
tmacTheorySSAnne
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Re: 1/2nl : Turn boat, how to get most value?

THOFF its unanimous balance is overrated in these live
Games especially here in your example imo. You make good points in
Your post tho.
the bump up sounds cool, id go either way
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Old 12-08-2014, 04:44 PM   #8
Darnoiah
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Re: 1/2nl : Turn boat, how to get most value?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HH2010 View Post
Fold pre since you aren't deep enough and position is good but not great. If you were to play it, then limp pre... A3s is a very weak hand to isolate with, much more value playing multi-way for cheap.

As played, this is an interesting spot to maximize value. If we were deeper it is a trivial re-raise, but with these effective stacks I am tempted to flat call and raise all in on the river.

Only problem with that line is that the club kills our action. V's range is value heavy, he's never bluffing or semi-bluffing on the turn (looks a lot like A9 or K3s). Whereas if we call this raise, we look a lot like having a flush draw. He's liable to check/fold river if the club hits. On the same token, he seems to like his hand a lot right now and I bet he will put more money in on the turn.

I might actually suggest raising like $50 on top. That is a very callable bet size and not as scary as an all-in shove. And that way your river bet should be a pretty easy call for him based on pot odds, even if the club hits.

I would not have taken this line in the heat of action, but thinking through the hand I think that makes sense.


I agree with ^ for the most part, but I think bluffs and semi-bluffs are possible for such a player on the turn. If he's been stacked twice and can't fold TP, he's probably not the best player and likely on tilt. I've seen people like this assume you are simply c-betting and again betting the turn with air or a draw yourself, and try to steal it with a min-raise.

I like a flat call here. You can easily get your whole stack in on the river. If he's already on top pair or two pair, he'll pay you off. If he is semi-bluffing, give him a chance to get there on the river. Ultimately, I think you'll have no trouble getting your stack in on the river, and your spot only improves by allowing for one more card.
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