Putting the top two paragraphs aside, it is not "trying to mine two pair" as much as no one is folding 87 suited [/B]in this situation in a $1/$2 blinds game with a UTG raiser and a few callers in between.

If you are comparing this to set mining and not getting paid off when you hit your set, it is not the same. But I do agree there are times to set mine and times not to. Heads up with 50BB and a 6BB raise, you can release small pocket pairs. But to make that argument to fold 87 suited here, it is like a mixed metaphor. Good argument but not applicable here.

I have the feeling there is a lot of deliberate misinformation being spread in this forum.

Flop: fearing 87s specifically is bad poker. Even when an opponent calls your bet. I'm done with this thread.

Are you following the thread?
What are you trying to say?
What are you adding to the discussion?
Please be clear, thanks.

Smartest guy here.
Give him 500 bonus posts and eliminate Newbie from his title.

This +1000. Dear Lord.

And to Cbarton and flyingnite:
YES you're going to lose big pots vs. opponents who play flopped two pair/sets passively. That's always going to be a problem with one-pair type hands. This doesn't make AK a RIO hand.

When talking about the "standard line" with AK here, the questions OP needs to ask himself about his table are:
- Will players pay me off on 3 streets with a dominated A or K if they hit?
- Will players endlessly chase their draws?
- Will players call you down with ridiculous hands for no reason? (ie: 2nd pair, 3rd pair, pocket pair lower than KK - esp. QQ/JJ)
And overwhelmingly, the answer to these questions is "YES" at a low limit live game. So bet, bet, bet with your TPGK+ hands, or you'll be losing so much value at these games.

And most live villains are so passive and play so transparently postflop that it becomes evident when their postflop range is weighted towards 2 pairs and sets. Did your TPTK get raised on that raggy rainbow board? Villain has flopped 2 pair with A5. Fold. So, bet/fold, bet/fold, bet/fold.

Are you going to avoid all the times villains beat your TPTK w sets, etc? No. But that doesn't mean that it's a bad idea to play AK.

HOW IS THIS EVEN AN EXPLANATION?!?

CSK 30 you make some excellent points.

No one said it was a bad idea to play AK.

The question is what to do with under the gun with calling stations.

It is okay to be passive and limp look to reraise to get heads up or win the hand preflop.

The problem is you cannot raise enough UTG in these games to do anything but invite half of the table in.

Yeah, that was sort of the point that I was getting at, that Villain (personified by cbarton) playing 87s as fit-or-fold is bad, and playing it more aggressively makes TPTK more valuable vs. his range in this situation.

But you said it better than me in fewer words.

To the people that are saying to pot it on the flop and look to pot it or move the rest in on turn or river(100bb or more total)
Doesn't that fall into the category of playing one pair too aggressively?

If you flop a set against the person with TPTK isn't that what you drool over is them just pushing the action so hard and you can just call and let him bust himself?

You may be missing the point about ranges. If sets and two pairs are like 80% of Villain's range there, then you're correct and playing for stacks with one pair is disastrous.

If AQ/AJ/KQ is a good part of Villain's range to call 2 big or 3 medium streets, as it would be for a player I'd refer to as a "calling station", then your analysis is off.

Is table aggro? If aggro player on cutoff, button, i'd limp 3 bet. If it's passive make a small raise. Usually raise, but mix it up. Don't bother c betting with in a multiway pot at 1/2 if you miss. Maybe vs 1/2max, but 3 or more forget it. Flop an ace or king, pot bet every street, check call river if flatted every street. Fold to obvious multiway action to tight players, if your hit an ace or king.

This thread would be more instructive as a discourse on positional play. Simply put, position matters more than the two cards you hold, or the hand you hit.

AK in general is a drawing hand, and even if you hit, why would you want to build a large pot OOP with TPTK?

If you can get SPR down to around 4, which seems reasonable ($200 stacks, $12 to go UTG, 3 cold callers) then I don't entirely endorse this statement. Position is still important at SPR=4 or 5 though.

You raise AK not only for value against dominated hands -- you're correct, it's harder to realize that value OOP -- but also because the value of AK declines rapidly as the field expands.

Questionable statement here.
Fearing is not a word I would use here.
You are losing to 87, keep betting and get no help and you stack off to 87(in the flop described).
You fearlessy go broke. Good for you. Reload.

Thank you, two schools of thought here.
AK UTG flopping one pair and...going broke.

AKQJT keeps arguing that AK beats AQ on a A87XX board, no kidding?

We're obviously just arguing on different planes here, so I'm done.

One last suggestion: if you ever decide you're not happy with your NLHE results, search this site for "range".

GL to you at the tables.

please lock thread for the love of god

If you are calling with 78 then you are also calling with 89, 910, and probably 67. A cbet is %100 mandatory at a low limit NL game on a two toned bored with tptk.

Not only will AQ-A9 look you up but you can't let 1 pair hands that might pay you off draw for free.

Feel free to check the turn for pot control, bluff catching what have you but too many players at the low limits will peel the flop with a pair or draw.

For every time you flop two pair you miss and hero gets value on his CBET. Hero is ahead of most ranges on this flop!

Note that no one is arguing against this.

No one is folding... besides the value of AK as a drawing hand increases with more players, and the value of TPTK decreases. Its like how TTs is great heads up, but as the we increase the field, it gains value as a set miner.

A low SPR does not imply you should commit a minimum of 50BB with TPTK OOP. At the minimum, you fire 20BB on the flop and 30BB on the turn. Its one thing to do this in LP, entirely different to do this in EP.

This.

And look. All the problems mentioned in this thread are the standard reverse-implied-odds stuff. Fine. If you're playing real deep and are going to be faced with these situations a lot and you don't have the skill edge to get around it, literally don't bloat the pot OOP with any part of your range.

But if you're playing 100BBs or less and are unwilling to commit vs. a bunch of loose-passives w TPTK, good luck getting value from and beating the average live game.

I'm 100% voting for limp reraise here in a 1/3 game (in a good 2/5 or 5/10 game, this is a completely different discussion). I don't feel like raising takes control of anything; against live calling station donks, they just don't give much credit to position, and they will find it easy to 'see what comes' against any normal raise. The only way, in my experience, to get some isolation, would be to limp re-raise, HARD. If nobody raises, then you're more able to not get your a-- in a crack with your faux-big hand.

If there is another raise, and you do limp 3bet, then you can feel far more confident pounding away at that flop.

L/RR has some benefits:

• If you're lucky, your opponent with 22-JJ will read you for KK+ and fold
• If he doesn't fold, you now have cover and should get more action the times you L/RR with KK+
• You can drastically reduce the SPR with a pot-sized raise -- maybe SPR=2 or less at 100x stacks. Now you can shove most (all?) flops and really your play is almost unexploitable.

But you can't reraise until there's a raise. At standard 1-3 games where most preflop action limps around, you're in a sticky situation if you flop TPTK into a huge field. At least you can check/fold with a clear conscience if you miss.

The problem is, instead of playing a raised pot 3- to 6-way, you're playing a limped pot (with much deeper effective stacks) 5- to 9-way.

===
If you expect a raise behind, which happens in some games, L/RR is GREAT!

Perfect!

Whats wrong with playing AK 5-9 way in a limped pot? The mistake is thinking TPTK is good for 100BB in a 5-9 way pot.

The good news if that happens is that you will not flop a pair 2 out of 3 times. Then you only lost $2 and can easily get away from it.