Hero ($600) is UTG: Late 20's reg, playing very LAG raising a lot of hands, probably 25-30% of hands pre at this table. I think at one point I raised 8 or 9 hands in a row.

V1 ($290) is UTG+2: 30's or 40's Asian guy, just moved to the table a few minutes ago, no reads.

V2 ($250) is in HJ: Late 30's or 40's white guy, plays almost every hand, rarely folds flops when he has any piece of it, calls me down extremely light, generally thinks I'm FOS.

Hero dealt QQ

Hero raises to $12, V1 3b to $25, V2 flats, hero flats. Normally I would just 4b here but fishy V2 is in the hand and I don't know what V1's 3b range is.

Flop ($78): 976

Hero checks, V1 bets $50, V2 quickly flats, hero tanks for 30 seconds and shoves.

Eh?

uhh i don't know, what's his 3-bet range and what are you beating or getting value from by shoving?

I wanted to say raise, but I can't think of a non-fishy number to raise that doesn't commit you on the turn if called.
V1's 3-bet range is JJ/QQ/KK/AA AK/AQ here. Given description, you want V2 in. So I would probably call and re-eval the turn.

Edit: or raise to $150 ish. Fold to shove, shove on turn if just called by V2.

Hmm...you're kind of shoving blind here in regards to V1. V2 you certainly are ahead of a lot of his 1 pair hands that he would flat w/otf. Kind of seems like you're turning your hand into a bluff here when you may have been able to get another street of value....but we don't want to see an A, K, 10 or 5 ott either and the board pairing makes us worry about V2 a little more.

Looking at V's stack sizes, they now have 215 and 175 left, respectively. I think a raise to like 125 would have been a better play here - lesser may call and stick around and you can then jam ott to any non scare cards. Better will presumably re-raise you all in so you can consider folding (to V1 at least) with less damage to your stack than the jam will do.

I don't think I can fold after any c/r just because he could have TT or JJ and more than half my stack would be in at that point.

Clearly this is a gii or fold spot

Live reads

Folding was my second option. Calling seems bad since half the deck is a bad card in a multiway pot. V1 is not a reg, never played with him before and this was the first hand he played. He might have been at the table for five minutes.

this

well no it would just be $150 ($25 pre plus $125 c/r) or 1/4 of your stack. But yes that is kind of irrelevant as I just realized my math was wrong in regards to V's remaining stack sizes/re-shove amount. you'd obviously have to call as it would only be like $90 more for V1 if he shoves back over you.

To be clear, I don't hate your c/r jam - flatting is bad here imo, I just think you may have been able to extract some value from at least V2 ott with a non-jam raise. the jam may fold him out. If V1 has AA/KK or a set but you had him well-covered and learned something about him for future reference (silver lining attempt here).

So put in 185 of 290 starting stack effective and then fold? OTF V1 has 255 left, you shouldn't be putting in about $100 (40%) if you're not willing to get ai.



I'm fine with the shove against V1. Middle-aged Asian guy have $ and are never scared $, give him 77+ and our equity is near 43%. Which is okay considering the dead $ from V2. But the question is how often is that actually dead $? V2 is shortest, has committed a third of his stack. If he's insta-calling with any pair+sd, 1) his money isn't dead lol, 2) the % of the time we're ahead of V1, we still need to dodge half the deck against V2.

If V1 calls ai, how light is V2 calling?

Middle-aged asian guy never min 3-bet less than jacks, c-bet, and call a shove too. If he shoves to our raise, he's repping KK AA. JJ QQ he just calls. AK AQ folds (or maybe calls).
I suggested raise, because when he pushes, it's another $115 to call, which we can fold from because we are def beat (yes i know it sucks, but $115 isn't enough to call and essentially set mine two streets).

We are trying to get value from V2 because we know he calls light, but we have to get out of the pot if V1 is ahead of us.

Edit: maybe $150 isn't a good number. I really hate min-raising to 100 though. so maybe raise to $120 instead and fold when pushed for $145 more.

Not a large percentage of the time, but some non-zero percent of the time villain folds KK/AA to a shove because he has no idea about either player and wj94's line looks super nutted, not to mention V2's snap call of his c-bet. He's been put in a crappy spot there and could find a fold with a better hand. It's ballsy as hell but I like the move.

You should be shaping a theory based on player actions. You're doing the opposite, coming up with V1 ranges to conform to an unsupported theory. You have V1 playing his hand perfectly against our QQ, not shoving JJ/TT/AK/AQ, getting ai with KK+. That's great to support you'r c/r/f line, but it's not reality.

And middle-aged white guy, yeah, never 3betting JJ-, maybe never 3betting at all. Asians will bloat pots just in case they hit sets, I'd actually say the older the Asian the more gamble. Young Asians on TV are pretty laggy but ime the youngsters are just bad @ 1/2.

I said that in response to what I took to be your generalization about middle aged asian guys in general (you said "guy" but also "are" so i assumed you were making a comment based on generalization of the player type).
Also arent you doing the same thing by saying that they love to gamble and will bloat the pot to set mine?

Furthermore, my line is based on my own experience as to what majority players 3-bet with. Yes I have also seen the gamble type building pots for their suited cards/small pairs, but thats usually a raise, not a 3-bet. In my experience 3-bet coming from a not particularly good or lag player screams of strength. In general 1/2 players dont 3-bet that light, hence I took smaller pocket pairs out from his range.

In response to your bolded line - you can say that about almost every hand analysis then. What's the point of creating game plans and line analysis in this forum, unless we can have the basic assumption that our V will, without evidence to the contrary, play at least somewhat logically and not to his obvious detriment?

It's fine to generalize based on race/age/clothes, I just thought my generalization was better than yours for that demographic.


Lol, V's consistently play to their detriment, that's why we play against them.

I only like this line if you think V1 will fold AA/KK some percentage of the time, because a min 3bet / two thirds pot lead into 2 players looks like AA/KK to me. If he can fold, then our bet serves as bluff to V1 and value to V2.

But he's an unknown, so not sure how you would know that.

Results:

Looks good to me with about $130 overlay in the pot.