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Old 05-05-2013, 04:00 PM   #1
wj94
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1/2NL: QQ facing limp/3b and call from SB

Hand at Red Rock...

Hero ($280) in BB: Mid-20's TAG-ish game, most regs see me more LAGish since I raise a lot more hands PF than your average player, especially in position. Both of the V's in this hand are not regs though, only V2 has played with me before

V1 ($140) is UTG+1: Old guy, probably about 75, just sat down at the table about an orbit ago, haven't seen him play a hand yet so no reads.

V2 (~$450) in SB: Old lady also probably around 75. Obvious bet sizing tells, tries to play trappy with nutted hands from what I've seen. On a hand earlier she flopped a set of 4's and rivered quads on a 48T24 board. Another player triple barreled with top pair and she just called twice and then raised river. Was incredibly obvious that she had a boat at minimum, but he paid her off anyway.

Hero dealt QQ

V1 limps, folds around to V2 to completes in SB, hero raises to $12. V1 3b to $37, V2 calls (!). Hero?
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Old 05-05-2013, 04:17 PM   #2
wewa925
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ facing limp/3b and call from SB

Without a read on V1, let's assume he is the normal old nit type of player. 3bet range of only KK/AA and maybe AK. The limp then 3bet looks super strong to me.

You probably have V2's range crushed. 66-JJ maybe? Has she called a 3bet pre previously?

With QQ in this spot, I'm never 4betting here. Looks like a set mining call and checking to evaluate flop.
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Old 05-05-2013, 04:18 PM   #3
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ facing limp/3b and call from SB

All 4 options are up for debate here.

With the surprising flat by V2 you could very well justify flatting here and set mining since you are looking at a 30% A or K to hit the Flop. You could be crushed by either so some pot control at this point is certainly acceptable. You have position on the bigger stack so you can make some decisions IP there. You should assume you will be able to check it through to V1 on the Flop if V1 has AA/KK on lower board.

You could min raise to see if V1 shoves and evaluate what V2 does. This seems a bit spewy but you would find out if V2 is really serious about the hand or not and decide what you want to do.

You could raise V1 all-in and evaluate V2 actions. More spew, especially if V2 shoves and you aren't prepared to call.

You could shove all-in and cross fingers that V2 is not the one with the AA/KK.

At this point I think you just call and set mine or fold out (really?). Obv UTG limp-raise play suggests AA/KK so now can you get V2 into a side pot beyond $140? Probably not unless you hit your set and its a Q-high board. Thats a lot to ask for but you are in the middle of the action and V2 can just sit back and let V1 do the betting for her if she wants.

The big question here is can you get V2 into a side pot with a hand you can beat? If the Flop has V1 shoving and V2 calling what do you do without a set? Tough spot but I can fold here to this 'kind' of action or set mine and fold with no problem. GL
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Old 05-05-2013, 04:29 PM   #4
NeverScurred
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ facing limp/3b and call from SB

Obviously any sort of 4b/fold line can be filed under "raising to see where you're at" and is thus bad. If you're calling just to setmine, then fold because UTG+1 isn't nearly deep enough to make it profitable against him and there is no indication that SB will stack off every time you make a set. It seems ****ty but I probably just puke-fold here, though I think I 4b/call with KK so it's fairly close.
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:58 PM   #5
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ facing limp/3b and call from SB

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Originally Posted by NeverScurred View Post
Obviously any sort of 4b/fold line can be filed under "raising to see where you're at" and is thus bad. If you're calling just to setmine, then fold because UTG+1 isn't nearly deep enough to make it profitable against him and there is no indication that SB will stack off every time you make a set. It seems ****ty but I probably just puke-fold here, though I think I 4b/call with KK so it's fairly close.
+1
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:05 AM   #6
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ facing limp/3b and call from SB

I raise more pf here in terms of bb at 2/5

Snap folding to the 3bet, this is like KK+ from an old person all the time
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:36 AM   #7
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ facing limp/3b and call from SB

I agree with the assessment that V1s range is AA/KK the majority of the time (~75%), AK (~20%). QQ, JJ, AQs and maybe down to something like 88 seem significantly less likely and in the minority absent any reads.

The V2 call OOP helps your cause I believe. You're ahead here and her call smells of a pair/set mine opportunity. You'll also have relative position assuming it gets checked over to V1 who most likely ships in his stack for about $100 into a $105 pot. You will have the opportunity to see how V2 responds to the action.

Given this I call here but don't mind a fold absent additional reads from V1 and lack of implied odds to drawing to a set. Of course when I call here and check over on a flop of low cards and he shoves and it gets back to me I am probably not disciplined enough not to call off another $100 to his shove. :/
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:56 AM   #8
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ facing limp/3b and call from SB

So I decide to call and stack off a low flop for another $100 with QQ depending on V2s action.

Flop ($111): A-Q-3 rainbow

V2 checks. Hero?
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Old 05-06-2013, 02:13 AM   #9
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ facing limp/3b and call from SB

I snap fold pre.

As played..if I hit a set here Im never folding.
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Old 05-06-2013, 02:19 AM   #10
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ facing limp/3b and call from SB

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Originally Posted by LotGrinder View Post
I snap fold pre.

As played..if I hit a set here Im never folding.
This. As played just check and hope villain bets. Leading out is way too risky as a shove or even call from villain 1 could scare villain 2 from calling
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Old 05-06-2013, 08:21 AM   #11
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ facing limp/3b and call from SB

Preflop is ugly no matter which way you go, but absent any other read I'm making a disgusted fold. The limp/raise from EP is AA/KK more then anything and he is way to shallow to mess around.

As played, a lot of the reason to be in this hand is to set mine V2 and for that to pay off we need to get stack in. If one of the villains has AA, then we pay them off. Normally I would always lead here unless I was sure V1 is going to bet, but the pot is so big and Hero's stack short enough that we can risk the flop checking around. If it appears obvious that V1 isn't going to bet, then I'll go ahead and donk for $50. I'm not worried about scaring V2 off here, because with this flop and the preflop action either she hit some part of this or she is done with hand.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:21 AM   #12
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ facing limp/3b and call from SB

Almost every time I see the limp reraise it's AA or occasionally KK. I disagree with people saying you won't get paid off if you hit a set. If it comes Q25 you're getting 100% of the money in against AA-KK.

On the flop I'm not liking the A. I think that basically makes it a check back unless you think KK is giving you action.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:29 AM   #13
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ facing limp/3b and call from SB

fold pre OOP from short-stack nit limp re-raising. (It's tough, I know).

As played check flop, expect villain to check both KK/AA cause FPS nits gonna nit. Hope V2 bets turn. If not i'd probably just check then pot river.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:32 AM   #14
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ facing limp/3b and call from SB

^ yeah just realised i read it wrong and thought deep old lady (!) had limp reraised. Fold pre.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:47 AM   #15
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ facing limp/3b and call from SB

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Originally Posted by llllllll View Post
Almost every time I see the limp reraise it's AA or occasionally KK. I disagree with people saying you won't get paid off if you hit a set. If it comes Q25 you're getting 100% of the money in against AA-KK.
Err, nobody is saying we won't get paid. What people are saying is that hero can't get paid enough. Villain only has $140 at start of hand and limp/raised to $37. We can't even get 4-1 on money vs V1, so unless hero can put a lot of AK/JJ/bluffs in villain's range it is an easy fold. It is the presence of V2 that makes this interesting. V2 improves our preflop pot odds and has enough to pay us off. The problem against V2 is that hero isn't really deep enough to make this comfortable. With a stack of only $280, hero can't get the 10-1+ ratio that hero would like. However, Hero does complete action and is now getting more then 3-1 preflop, so calling to set mine is possible but thin.

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Originally Posted by llllllll View Post
On the flop I'm not liking the A. I think that basically makes it a check back unless you think KK is giving you action.
If your going to check down any flop here you should have folded pre. You hit a set and SPR is small, you should be planning how best to get money in, and if villain has a higher set then it is bad luck. V1 is going to shove AK here just as much as AA, and if they are smart will shove KK also after two checks.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:52 AM   #16
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ facing limp/3b and call from SB

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Err, nobody is saying we won't get paid. What people are saying is that hero can't get paid enough. Villain only has $140 at start of hand and limp/raised to $37. We can't even get 4-1 on money vs V1, so unless hero can put a lot of AK/JJ/bluffs in villain's range it is an easy fold. It is the presence of V2 that makes this interesting. V2 improves our preflop pot odds and has enough to pay us off. The problem against V2 is that hero isn't really deep enough to make this comfortable. With a stack of only $280, hero can't get the 10-1+ ratio that hero would like. However, Hero does complete action and is now getting more then 3-1 preflop, so calling to set mine is possible but thin.

If your going to check down any flop here you should have folded pre. You hit a set and SPR is small, you should be planning how best to get money in, and if villain has a higher set then it is bad luck. V1 is going to shove AK here just as much as AA, and if they are smart will shove KK also after two checks.
Err, see my post above yours.
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Old 05-06-2013, 10:03 AM   #17
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ facing limp/3b and call from SB

you don't really have odds to set mine.. if i'm playing really well, i'm folding here

as it stands just check flop now , it's a pretty dry board
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:29 PM   #18
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ facing limp/3b and call from SB

Insta mucking this pre and feeling awesome about it.

As played check and give KK a chance to spazz. Lead turn if checked back obv
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:52 PM   #19
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ facing limp/3b and call from SB

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Originally Posted by llllllll View Post
Err, see my post above yours.
Heh, you must have posted while I was typing. The situation is way different if she limp/raises. It is even harder to guess a range for her to do that. Given her profile, I would expect her to raise big from SB with AA but she might also trap in a situation where she knows there will only be 3 to flop.

I would still bail to a reraise here unless we had evidence villain can do it light. Hero isn't deep enough to really set mine to a big raise and villain's range looks very strong.
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:00 PM   #20
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ facing limp/3b and call from SB

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Heh, you must have posted while I was typing. The situation is way different if she limp/raises. It is even harder to guess a range for her to do that. Given her profile, I would expect her to raise big from SB with AA but she might also trap in a situation where she knows there will only be 3 to flop.

I would still bail to a reraise here unless we had evidence villain can do it light. Hero isn't deep enough to really set mine to a big raise and villain's range looks very strong.
Agreed.

The limp reraise is more often than not AA in my experience. It's from people who're scared to play postflop most times.
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:03 PM   #21
JoeyyyyyG
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Hero flats. Of course I'm also raising ~17-22$ pre
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:05 PM   #22
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Hero bets enough to make AK/AQ reraise to induce an easy jam. Hero pays off Villain if he has AA. Next hand
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:15 PM   #23
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ facing limp/3b and call from SB

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Hero flats. Of course I'm also raising ~17-22$ pre
Does this not depend what the standard preflop action is in OP's game?

Quote:
Hero bets enough to make AK/AQ reraise to induce an easy jam. Hero pays off Villain if he has AA. Next hand
Is this on the flop? What range are you putting them on after the preflop action? How often do you think they're doing this pre without AA?
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:29 PM   #24
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With the third best hand in the game, I like to set me preflop raise to a higher standard. (Personal preference)

For the pt II, I'll pay off set over set at 1/2 stakes. Often I see limp/rereraise with AKo in early position and here I'd see villain flip over 2pair or make a wild move with KK trying to push me off an ace. QQ flopped set is powerful here - ill consider folding if it was a 3-suited board to a 3bet multiway.

Plus your villains stack size makes me laugh.
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Old 05-06-2013, 03:22 PM   #25
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ facing limp/3b and call from SB

I thought if I donked flop that V folds KK multiways almost 100% of the time, so I check and he checks back...which still gives him a range of KK/AA only.

Turn ($111): 9

Board is still rainbow. V2 donks $35. Hero flat or raise?
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