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Old 02-18-2014, 01:20 PM   #51
SABR42
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

Call.
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:24 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
So he likes to raise to $20 with junk preflop (a mere 2% of stack) and somehow we equate that to willing to stack off for 500bbs preflop (100% of stack) with these same junk hands?

Lol, maybe this is why I get paid off constantly in my game. I show up with a preflop raised junk hand (when it's folded to me in LP) and then later on someone pays off my 100bb shove on the river because "I'm the idiot who raised with J4o that one time".

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+1

Gotta love that selective memory huh?
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:25 PM   #53
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
So he likes to raise to $20 with junk preflop (a mere 2% of stack) and somehow we equate that to willing to stack off for 500bbs preflop (100% of stack) with these same junk hands?

Lol, maybe this is why I get paid off constantly in my game. I show up with a preflop raised junk hand (when it's folded to me in LP) and then later on someone pays off my 100bb shove on the river because "I'm the idiot who raised with J4o that one time".

GadmittedlythemostconservativeposteronthisforumG

Come on GG, seriously. How often will the guy come over the top here with a 4 bet? Of course, if that rare event does happen we can re-evaluete.

The point is that maniac is playing every hand dealt and is showing that he has no brakes at all postflop with total junk. This is not like villain is a semipro with a LAG image and we are making faulty reads on him (letting him manipulate us). He is playing every hand and is not afraid to put big money in the pot with all sorts of junk.

He is going to call our 3 bet with every garbage hand he is opening with for sure. And regards to OP he is calling huge bets with draws and any piece of the board. Talking about fat value!

How we can NOT 3 bet this monkey preflop for value with QQ is beyond my understanding.
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:30 PM   #54
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

4 pages ... time to respond I guess.

Grunch:
3bet to $150.
Stack of on pretty much all flops.

Maybe lay it down on a AKX flop when check raised all in with no flush draw possible.

Otherwise, I wouldn't really consider it.

Pot will bet $300, bet $250 on 85% of flops.
Shove the turn for $600 into $800.

If we get a Q high flop (or a 442 super safe type flop) with few draws maybe go flop $175, turn $325, shove. Whatever makes you hard.
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:43 PM   #55
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

Players calling $66 3bets in a $1/$2 game, with T4 are players that I want to get stacks in with QQ against on almost all flop textures.
Esp if he's been playing every hand.

If we give him a range of TT+ / AK we ahead slightly, he's never folding. And we are IP. And I'm not even sure that his range is that small. He is playing 90% of hands.
I think his value range is weighted more towards TT/JJ as someone else already mentioned.

Let alone his 'wtf I'm a spazz' range.

Last edited by iraisetoomuch; 02-18-2014 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:51 PM   #56
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

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Call.
Now I'm intrigued.
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Old 02-18-2014, 02:06 PM   #57
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

Good discussion...playing deep is fun. Moving along:

Hero dealt QQ

V1 opens to $45 UTG. Hero calls, everyone else folds, including V2, who I was hoping would call from the BB, he's not one to turn down a big pot very often. Damn.

Flop ($93): AT7

V pretty quickly leads out for $90. Hero?
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Old 02-18-2014, 02:12 PM   #58
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

Call.

I assume you called pre flop expecting to be smashing his range, and for him to fire a lot of flops, and because you think that you can get more value post from his bluffs then you can from his 3bet calling range pre flop.

So lets continue on our plan.

I'm not opposed to folding later streets if he pot turn / pot river, but at this point I'm not folding.
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Old 02-18-2014, 02:35 PM   #59
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

Pretty bad flop if we range him as AK-AQ, 99-JJ preflop. Against that specific range we should fold so we'd have to widen his preflop range to make calling good.

I also change my mind and flat pre to invite V2 in the hand but would 3bet otherwise.
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Old 02-18-2014, 03:15 PM   #60
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

Seems like there will better spots than this to stack this guy. Uber-nitty, but I fold to the flop bet.
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Old 02-18-2014, 03:26 PM   #61
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

I'm calling because I don't believe him yet.
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Old 02-18-2014, 03:37 PM   #62
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

Quote:
Originally Posted by wj94 View Post
Good discussion...playing deep is fun. Moving along:

Hero dealt QQ

V1 opens to $45 UTG. Hero calls, everyone else folds, including V2, who I was hoping would call from the BB, he's not one to turn down a big pot very often. Damn.

Flop ($93): AT7

V pretty quickly leads out for $90. Hero?
I'd probably fold. Thinks aren't going to get any easier on the turn, where it looks like he might be fairly happy with simply barreling PSBs into us. How many are we going to call down on a pretty sucktastic board?

I mean, sure, I've taken like the weakest possible line against a maniac and now folded on a meh board. The bad news is that it's very possible he outplayed us this hand and stole $45 from our chipstack. The good news is that we only lost 4.5% of our stack, are still insanely deep, and still sitting to his left. Next hand please.

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Old 02-18-2014, 03:51 PM   #63
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

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I'm calling because I don't believe him yet.
+1
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Old 02-18-2014, 04:01 PM   #64
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Fold pre. Its AA or KK only.

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Old 02-18-2014, 04:05 PM   #65
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Also how do I get to hit sets as often as you OP? Jeez....

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Old 02-18-2014, 04:30 PM   #66
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

call flop, if your not going to 3 bet pre I can't imagine folding any flop.

btw I hate the T way more than the A.
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Old 02-18-2014, 09:38 PM   #67
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

According to your reads, it seems like V's main leaks are 1) too wide preflop range (both raising and calling); and 2) calling big bets with combo draws. He doesn't really come off as a maniac based on what you wrote in the OP, though. Have you even seen him bluff?

When he pots this flop, it looks more like he is representing the ace and wants you to fold (the sizing is similar to his sizing in previous hands with draws). He might have a combo draw like KJhh or Txhh, or could have a non-ace 1 pair hand like 3x, Tx, 99+. Of course, aces are in his range too, but you are probably well ahead of his range. I almost completely eliminate the possibility of a set here. 1/2 villains hardly ever make huge bets first to act when they flop a set. Bad LAGs are more likely to slowplay when they hit a big hand.

We don't have any reason to suspect this guy to make a huge bluff/semi-bluff if he has a combo draw, or that he will stack off with just top pair. However, we do have reason to suspect that he will call too big of bets with a combo draw with bad odds.

This could be a good spot for a raise to ~$250 OTF because he absolutely can call with worse but isn't that likely to shove on you with a draw. Most of the time he's probably going to have a weak hand and just fold to a raise. Now if he does call and the turn is not a heart, king, or jack I think you can shove on him profitably, since you can get called by a draw, and possibly get him to fold a better hand like KK or an ace at the same time.

So basically against this player I think the best value line is to play your hand like you flopped another set, trying to get him to fold naked 1 pair hands that beat you while getting him to call you with his draws (the main leak of his you have observed). On the other hand, you can just fold and find a better spot depending on your br.
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Old 02-18-2014, 11:07 PM   #68
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

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Originally Posted by darkestfog View Post
According to your reads, it seems like V's main leaks are 1) too wide preflop range (both raising and calling); and 2) calling big bets with combo draws. He doesn't really come off as a maniac based on what you wrote in the OP, though. Have you even seen him bluff?

When he pots this flop, it looks more like he is representing the ace and wants you to fold (the sizing is similar to his sizing in previous hands with draws). He might have a combo draw like KJhh or Txhh, or could have a non-ace 1 pair hand like 3x, Tx, 99+. Of course, aces are in his range too, but you are probably well ahead of his range. I almost completely eliminate the possibility of a set here. 1/2 villains hardly ever make huge bets first to act when they flop a set. Bad LAGs are more likely to slowplay when they hit a big hand.

We don't have any reason to suspect this guy to make a huge bluff/semi-bluff if he has a combo draw, or that he will stack off with just top pair. However, we do have reason to suspect that he will call too big of bets with a combo draw with bad odds.

This could be a good spot for a raise to ~$250 OTF because he absolutely can call with worse but isn't that likely to shove on you with a draw. Most of the time he's probably going to have a weak hand and just fold to a raise. Now if he does call and the turn is not a heart, king, or jack I think you can shove on him profitably, since you can get called by a draw, and possibly get him to fold a better hand like KK or an ace at the same time.

So basically against this player I think the best value line is to play your hand like you flopped another set, trying to get him to fold naked 1 pair hands that beat you while getting him to call you with his draws (the main leak of his you have observed). On the other hand, you can just fold and find a better spot depending on your br.
Are you giving up if he calls a flop raise and the turn is a blank? Shoving or folding if he calls a flop raise and leads turn again on a blank?
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Old 02-18-2014, 11:47 PM   #69
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

There's like 3 possible combos of diamonds that are consistent with his preflop sizing: KQdd, KJdd, and QJdd. And trying to make a maniac fold TPTK on a wet board seems pretty suicidal, especially when we've been getting involved against him quite a bit.
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Old 02-18-2014, 11:52 PM   #70
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

Quote:
Originally Posted by wj94 View Post
Are you giving up if he calls a flop raise and the turn is a blank? Shoving or folding if he calls a flop raise and leads turn again on a blank?
If the turn is a blank and he checks, we bet as much as we think he would call with a combo draw. This should be more than he would call with an ace or KK, thus increasing the chance we fold out some hands we lose to and get called by hands we beat. Probably around pot-size.

If he donks big on the turn there is no longer any fold equity, and I think in this case we have to weight his range more heavily towards hands that beat us, because he hasn't shown a tendency to go crazy with semi-bluffs... so I think we fold to a big donk on the turn.

If he donks small on the turn (1/2 pot or less) I think we just ship it and expect him to call with a combo draw based on his observed tendencies, and hope he folds his 1 pair hands (or maybe even 2 pair??) that beat us. It really looks like we have a monster hand here, so he will often fold better hands but call with draws. I see people donk small on the turn all the time when they want to see the river with a combo draw.


I'm really only theorizing here, maybe I'm outleveling myself, just thought I'd contribute an unconventional (?) line here that is designed to exploit this particular villain.
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Old 02-19-2014, 02:56 PM   #71
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

Results:

Spoiler:
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Old 02-19-2014, 03:59 PM   #72
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

Seems like a fine fold even if there is value to be had here since you didn't have a specific plan for how to exploit this villain.

By the way, what would you do if you had AsQc instead in this same situation? I think QQ has very similar value in this spot.
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Old 02-19-2014, 04:06 PM   #73
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

NH

I still think I would have 3b him, but flatting doesn't seem bad if you believe the table is just going to fold. I don't think I'd have folded for the one bet, but I don't think it's bad either.
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