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Old 02-17-2014, 05:19 PM   #26
Snowball2
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

OP - more info on V is needed at this point it seems.
What was his position and pf action when he had 62o, 72o?

Has he ever showed down a big hand, and how did he play it?

Based on the history, it seems like he has no bluffs (not including semi-bluffs) in his range. Have you ever seen him bluff? (If no bluff in his range, it makes post-flop playing easier)
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Old 02-17-2014, 05:29 PM   #27
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

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Originally Posted by HappyLuckBox View Post
Seriously, guys he opened 22x utg. You guys want to 3bet a 22x utg raise with QQ?


Unless i have a specific read or history that this villian has enough garbage in his range when he nukes it to 22x utg, there is nothing to do here but flat call
If he has 99-JJ, AK, AQ in his range...of course. Especially since he isn't folding.
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Old 02-17-2014, 06:40 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by HappyLuckBox View Post
Lol, you cant call if you are just looking to setmine here. You are calling because QQ still has massive playability
agree. calling to set mine is bad imo. can we really put V on AA KK only?
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Old 02-17-2014, 06:43 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyLuckBox View Post
Seriously, guys he opened 22x utg. You guys want to 3bet a 22x utg raise with QQ?


Unless i have a specific read or history that this villian has enough garbage in his range when he nukes it to 22x utg, there is nothing to do here but flat call
you seem to be advocating for a call confidently. Why an we not 3 bet here? I strongly believe V has AK here, can we really not 3 bet for value pre flop? I feel like if we just call we are essentially playing the hand blind bc we really have no idea what V can have...
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Old 02-17-2014, 06:47 PM   #30
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

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Originally Posted by bwslim69 View Post
Why on earth are we ever checking back flop in Hand 1 on that super wet board with these villains?
1. Give V1 a chance to bluff or semi-bluff and commit himself with any piece.
2. V2 often bets or shoves with any pair but might fold if I lead out big. His range is literally ATC that are suited or semi-connected. V1 seems to like stabbing at big pots and they always put you on AK, right?
3. I had no plans on folding at any point

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwslim69 View Post
I will concede that we need a bigger read here on his opening tendencies. I mean he opened 22x here...has he opened much before and if so what did that look like (sizing, showdown, etc.). But in a vacuum flatting here against this villain is losing value IMO
His opens have been all over the place and seem pretty random. He hasn't shown down any JJ+/AQ+ hands yet, so I don't know what amounts he's opening those for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MackCorl View Post
Just because he is always in hands and has shown down 27 or whatever the hands were (on mobile) OP has gave no reference how those hands went preflop which is exactly the information we need for this hand, did he raise it? Limp it? Limp/call it etc etc. And I certainly think even a maniac can fold out to a decent sized 3bet.
The 27 and 26 hands were small raises pre, I think he might have been the one to raise the 26, wasn't really paying attention. There was maybe $20-40 in the pot on the flop for each of those hands. He was in the BB for 27 and in MP for 26.
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Old 02-17-2014, 06:58 PM   #31
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

Well, this isn't a fun situation at all.

I was all about flatting and taking it from there, but when I read the description of V again, I can't help but want to 3b this guy. I'm making it healthy, to about $150-$170. If V sticks it in, I'm folding.
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Old 02-17-2014, 07:04 PM   #32
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

I like the thinking in hand 1 but it looks like your read was off since he checked back pair + NFD.
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Old 02-17-2014, 07:32 PM   #33
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

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Originally Posted by bwslim69 View Post
Why on earth are we ever checking back flop in Hand 1 on that super wet board with these villains?

This hand seems like a standard 3b against this villain and probably bigger than normal. However, you say he is limping a lot. Does this then assume that his limping range < raising range? or is it just a button clicking situation where he decides what he is going to do at that moment and goes with it?
Exactly my thoughts. Hate the check on hand 1.

This hand doesn't seem like a decision at all. You say he's got a VPIP of about 100%? He has some aggressive tendencies? You've seen him vary his raise size to ******ed amounts, regardless of pot size. You're well ahead of his opening range and your fold equity is essentially 0%. This is kind of a dream situation and an easy 3bet. As slim said, make it bigger than normal.
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Old 02-17-2014, 07:50 PM   #34
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

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Originally Posted by bwslim69 View Post
If he has 99-JJ, AK, AQ in his range...of course. Especially since he isn't folding.

+1

This hand reminds me of a spew whale i played against in a wild homegame some time ago. Whale had skyhigh vpp, playing close to every hand dealt. He was raising it up 11x pre, 15 x pre, 25 x you name it. I found out it was no correlation between his raise sizes and his hand strength.

But the most important part: he didnt fold to a 3 bet whatsoever. Every hand he opened he called a 3 bet with also. So how could i ever fold a solid hand to this guy? I didnt either.

I ended up stacking him in a massive 700 BB 3 bet pot, with my QQ on a 378 board, where he ended up stacking off to me with A8 for top pair.
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Old 02-17-2014, 07:59 PM   #35
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This is a prime 3! spot, calling invites so many bad scenarios behind you.

You need to 3!, villains vpip is stupid high and he's literally ATC. You stand to crush his range, but your position sucks. 3! offers protection in a variety of ways.

Can we fold if we get 4! given the villain description? Not likely, unless you have a specific read he only would do this with KK+, but at this point he seems spewtastic and is way wider than QQ+ right now, and likely will be when he 4!'s as well.

Bc F4O said so....
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Old 02-17-2014, 08:00 PM   #36
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

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Originally Posted by daniel9861 View Post
I like the thinking in hand 1 but it looks like your read was off since he checked back pair + NFD.
He had T4hh, so pair and T-high flush draw. I was surprised he checked it back, he had bet or raised almost all of his draws up to that point.

For those that want to 3b, if he calls are we just triple barrel shoving 500bb on low flops? Going for two streets? What's the plan for A-high and K-high flops if he leads big?
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Old 02-17-2014, 08:07 PM   #37
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

Yes. You player poker postflop. The only difference is the pot is extremely inflated pre. Ranges are ranges, despite the size of the pot.

I can't give you a map for every postflop scenario, but I can tell you if he flats the 3bet pre I'm bet/bet/betting with an overpair on a lot of runouts.
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Old 02-17-2014, 08:11 PM   #38
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

Quote:
Originally Posted by wj94 View Post
He had T4hh, so pair and T-high flush draw. I was surprised he checked it back, he had bet or raised almost all of his draws up to that point.

For those that want to 3b, if he calls are we just triple barrel shoving 500bb on low flops? Going for two streets? What's the plan for A-high and K-high flops if he leads big?
With your description of this spewmonkey in your first post i am 3 betting this guy very big here with QQ to juice the pot up max preflop and plan on getting it in with him on any decent low flop where i flop an overpair. The guys seems out of all control,out of line and plays total garbage like 7-2 or 6-2 off for big bets postflop. I mean come on.

We just cant fold to those kind of superspewers can we? I am certainly not doing it. Normally stacking off 500 BB with an overpair is not something i usually do of course, but here i think the situation (villain) varrants it.

Last edited by Gilmour; 02-17-2014 at 08:21 PM.
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Old 02-17-2014, 08:19 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beauvanlaanen View Post
agree. calling to set mine is bad imo. can we really put V on AA KK only?
Of course we can set mine here (not that that is all we are doing). We are calling 22.5bbs with position 500bbs deep, against a tard who is very rarely folding his very likely big pair no matter the runout.
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Old 02-17-2014, 08:53 PM   #40
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

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Originally Posted by Snowball2 View Post

This sounds like a pahwm.
+1

Great posters can (and have so far) make the case for flat or raise here.

My initial thought was to raise to $145, because this V isn't flatting AA or KK behind. But I don't think we know what his flat range actually consists of, so A or K on the flop puts us in a bad spot.

OTOH flatting lets us play QQ in position most of the time which we don't hate. And sometimes we flop the set and take V's stack.

Either way we play it I see villain shipping us a *****load of chips here.

I second the call for PAHWM (cuz much, much better players than I can own this thread).
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Old 02-17-2014, 09:11 PM   #41
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

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Originally Posted by wj94 View Post
For those that want to 3b, if he calls are we just triple barrel shoving 500bb on low flops? Going for two streets? What's the plan for A-high and K-high flops if he leads big?
I would expect him to play pretty straightforward since he's already been shown to play straightforward(nitty actually) in that other 3bet pot.
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Old 02-17-2014, 09:34 PM   #42
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

just checking on hand 1 was terrible, anyway I would flat with q's, I would only 3bet if you expect to call a shove, because I would expect this player to shove j's+ ak I don't think many players will call behind because its a pretty big raise size.
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Old 02-17-2014, 09:56 PM   #43
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

Whenever people do these dumb type of opens I just treat it like the stake that the open would be standard at.

So for this hand, with a $50ish open, and $1K stacks, you are playing 5/10. It is actually set up quite nicely for you.

That means you have 100bb's and can play accordingly.

Also, these types of opens are generally JJ/TT/AK types of hands. If he has AA/KK and is terrified or managed to level us or w/e in a cooler type situation, god bless.

I would 3! on the larger end fwiw. It does kind of suck there is less dead money in the pot (for example at 5/10 there'd be an additional $12).

Also, you are obv running hot and like a 96% favorite to flop a set. Start building a pot.
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Old 02-18-2014, 12:55 AM   #44
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

Grunch: Based on a pretty decent sample, extremely large pre flop opens are usually indicative of strong, but vulnerable holdings. I'd feel comfortable 3b for value, especially this deep knowing its likely hes gonna be playing very straightforward in a 3b pot, since already looks like he's playing scared
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Old 02-18-2014, 09:43 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by MackCorl View Post

And let's say we 3bet it to around 150 I would say to be reasonable? What happens when he calls then fires 250 on pretty much all flops? What happens when he 4bets to 400+?
Where this is a seemingly standard 3bet pot, I feel like you guys are not realizing if he is a true maniac IMO one of these two things would happen. What then?
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Old 02-18-2014, 09:44 AM   #46
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Where this is a seemingly standard 3bet pot, I feel like you guys are not realizing if he is a true maniac IMO one of these two things would happen. What then?
I would be fine with a call call call line IMO in the first spot, if he comes around with a good sized 4bet on the other hand...

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Old 02-18-2014, 09:52 AM   #47
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

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Originally Posted by MackCorl View Post
Where this is a seemingly standard 3bet pot, I feel like you guys are not realizing if he is a true maniac IMO one of these two things would happen. What then?
Isnt he a true maniac or spewmonkey? Are you serious?

Read OPs description of villain in his opening post and tell me that this guy is not a maniac?

The guy is playing nearly every hand dealt, and inflating the pot postflop with total garbage like 6-2 or 7-2 off. Quote from OPs description of the maniac:

"Playing every hand, calling huge bets with draws, triple barreling top pair,"


The last thing that worries me playing against this monkey is that QQ isnt gonna be good. If he manage to luckboxing KK or AA here when he plays every hand dealt and refuses to fold: may the force be with him, i mean come on.
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Old 02-18-2014, 12:56 PM   #48
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Whenever people do these dumb type of opens I just treat it like the stake that the open would be standard at.

So for this hand, with a $50ish open, and $1K stacks, you are playing 5/10. It is actually set up quite nicely for you.

That means you have 100bb's and can play accordingly.
So if he opens shoves for $1000, we can just assume we're playing a $500/$1000 game for a 1bb pot and play accordingly? That doesn't make any sense.

Maybe I'm not understanding exactly how maniac this guy is, but anyone who gets in 500bbs preflop without AA/KK is like king of the maniacs. Or is everyone else here playing in games where everyone is sitting with 500+bbs and getting it all-in preflop with a wide range like it is no big deal?

So, for those who are 3betting, are you playing for stacks preflop or are you folding? Folding just seems so sucky when 1/8 times we flop a monster that will probably win a 500bb stack postflop.

As for missing value due to not 3betting preflop, we'll be in position postflop, almost certainly HU (or what, we're expecting others to come along for the ride behind us?) and can almost just meekly bluffcatch our way to victory over 3 postflop streets for more than enough value if we see fit.

GoutofstepG
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:01 PM   #49
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
So if he opens shoves for $1000, we can just assume we're playing a $500/$1000 game for a 1bb pot and play accordingly? That doesn't make any sense.

Maybe I'm not understanding exactly how maniac this guy is, but anyone who gets in 500bbs preflop without AA/KK is like king of the maniacs. Or is everyone else here playing in games where everyone is sitting with 500+bbs and getting it all-in preflop with a wide range like it is no big deal?

So, for those who are 3betting, are you playing for stacks preflop or are you folding? Folding just seems so sucky when 1/8 times we flop a monster that will probably win a 500bb stack postflop. If your gonna wait for top set against this guy he will most likely donk away his money to some other player before you get to that point.

As for missing value due to not 3betting preflop, we'll be in position postflop, almost certainly HU (or what, we're expecting others to come along for the ride behind us?) and can almost just meekly bluffcatch our way to victory over 3 postflop streets for more than enough value if we see fit.

GoutofstepG

If he plays every hand dealt according to OP, and he triple barrels with top pair, inflates the pot with 6-2 off and refuses to fold any hand preflop- how big of a spewmonkey do you think he is?

I have played with couple of those as mentioned earlier ITT, and you just have to widen your stackoffrange by far when you see what kind of garbage those monkeys are willing to inflate the pot with.

Whether we are 200-300 or 500 BB deep doesent really matter if you got the bankroll, because villain for sure doesent care at all- neither is he even close to take stacksizes into account for his play. I mean, the value of 3 betting this guy big preflop is unreal, and if he flop any piece or draw he will probably continue to put ridicilous amounst of money into the pot.

Last edited by Gilmour; 02-18-2014 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:20 PM   #50
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Re: 1/2NL: QQ against maniac 500bb deep, big UTG raise

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Originally Posted by Gilmour View Post
If he plays every hand dealt according to OP, and he triple barrels with top pair, inflates the pot with 6-2 off and refuses to fold any hand preflop- how big of a spewmonkey do you think he is?

I have played with couple of those as mentioned earlier ITT, and you just have to widen your stackoffrange by far when you see what kind of garbage those monkeys are willing to inflate the pot with.

Whether we are 200-300 or 500 BB deep doesent really matter if you got the bankroll, because villain for sure doesent care at all- neither is he even close to take stacksizes into account for his play. I mean, the value of 3 betting this guy big preflop is unreal, and if he flop any piece or draw he will probably continue to put ridicilous amounst of money into the pot.
So he likes to raise to $20 with junk preflop (a mere 2% of stack) and somehow we equate that to willing to stack off for 500bbs preflop (100% of stack) with these same junk hands?

Lol, maybe this is why I get paid off constantly in my game. I show up with a preflop raised junk hand (when it's folded to me in LP) and then later on someone pays off my 100bb shove on the river because "I'm the idiot who raised with J4o that one time".

GadmittedlythemostconservativeposteronthisforumG
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