Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-21-2014, 03:42 PM   #1
maplestar
grinder
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 541
1/2nl,mid set facing raise on flush turn

9-handed 1/2 table.Hero just moves to this new table.villian is a black dude in his 30s and unknown to me.UTG straddle on,two mp calls,villian in BT raises to $22,hero calls with 7h7s in sb,bb calls,UTG straddler calls.So its 4 way pot.Villian has about $900 and hero $330.
Flop($80): Kh 7c 6h hero bets $50,everyone folds to villian who calls.
Turn($180):Th hero bets $100,villian gives an upset annoyed look and suddenly raises to $200,hero?
Should we check/reevaluate on this turn?However,i really want to value bet vs his KxAh,KxQh,Ak,AA and other worse hands

Last edited by maplestar; 05-21-2014 at 03:53 PM.
maplestar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2014, 05:11 PM   #2
Mr_Doomed
old hand
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,629
Re: 1/2nl,mid set facing raise on flush turn

Since ur not th pre flop aggressor I like x raise flop all day long. This pot is multi way and someone has likely hit at least top pair. Let them shove in dead money then you can raise and commit yourself.
As played I think V can have lots of hands we are doing well against and the pot has swelled. I am getting my stack in on the turn, but your could of planned out the hand much better. When you check raise you are getting max value and are likely getting looked up on the wet of a board. Donk leading isn't terrible but I definitely think X raising is better in this spot.
Mr_Doomed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2014, 05:20 PM   #3
boredoo
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 282
Re: 1/2nl,mid set facing raise on flush turn

Quote:
Originally Posted by maplestar View Post
9-handed 1/2 table.Hero just moves to this new table.villian is a black dude in his 30s and unknown to me.UTG straddle on,two mp calls,villian in BT raises to $22,hero calls with 7h7s in sb,bb calls,UTG straddler calls.So its 4 way pot.Villian has about $900 and hero $330.
Flop($80): Kh 7c 6h hero bets $50,everyone folds to villian who calls.
Turn($180):Th hero bets $100,villian gives an upset annoyed look and suddenly raises to $200,hero?
Should we check/reevaluate on this turn?However,i really want to value bet vs his KxAh,KxQh,Ak,AA and other worse hands
My experience is a min-raise like that on the turn is typically TPTK like always. Big hands want to keep people in for river value. Small hands check. TPTKish hands don't want a "real" raise like 300 bucks because they know that they don't want to play a pot that large with TPTK.

I think a check is bad. You have a good hand, you're not that deep (165BB), don't give up a street of value. If he shoves or raises like 400 on the turn I think it's a fold.

I would:

Bet/call turn unless it's a big raise ($300-400).

Bet/fold river.
boredoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2014, 06:37 PM   #4
losingisfun
journeyman
 
losingisfun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 229
Re: 1/2nl,mid set facing raise on flush turn

Tough spot, but I think betting turn is definitely right.
As played, I think shoving is bad, but folding getting 5-to-1 is worse. I guess shove and hope to fill up
losingisfun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2014, 07:14 PM   #5
jimicornerstone
grinder
 
jimicornerstone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 413
Tough spot and I think you have to continue on the turn, but I've seen the "oh no, I hate that card...I raise" tell eight hundred times and it's almost always a big hand. I think we can def consider a fold.
jimicornerstone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 06:48 AM   #6
tw1n_k0i
journeyman
 
tw1n_k0i's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 342
Re: 1/2nl,mid set facing raise on flush turn

I would bet the turn smaller like 80-90 but 100 is not bad. There's not much that you can hope calls, AhKx or AhAx, maybe a plain K or QhQx.

The upset look is probably hollywood. The way he played this hand is consistent with AQhh/AJhh. As played just call and hope to boat up. Getting 4.8:1 you have direct pot odds to do so.
tw1n_k0i is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 07:51 AM   #7
SaintTino
grinder
 
SaintTino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Who Dat City
Posts: 562
Re: 1/2nl,mid set facing raise on flush turn

You've played the hand perfectly thus far. I love leading with a set here. Against some villains I like c/r but most of the time we want to build a pot especially since a donk bet looks so weak. Jam the turn
SaintTino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 08:21 AM   #8
samo
Pooh-Bah
 
samo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 4,022
Re: 1/2nl,mid set facing raise on flush turn

I think you played it well, AI now.

Flop lead is good b/c you get value from the money card and draws. Your lead may also induce a raise which makes it easy to get stack in OTF.

With a FD blocker I also believe leading the turn for value is optimal.
samo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 10:05 AM   #9
Troyble
journeyman
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 345
Re: 1/2nl,mid set facing raise on flush turn

Both leading the flop and check/raising are reasonable here, as long as your plan is to set up a turn shove. $50 doesn't quite do that. $65-$70 works quite a bit better if you're going to lead. If you can pick up any indication that BU or one of the other players are going to bet if checked to, a small check raise becomes a lot better IMO.

As played, that is the nut worst turn card, and when he min-raises you're behind almost always. The good news is you're getting 4.8 to 1 to draw to 11 clean outs, and there's no way he's folding for your last 80 bucks otr if you hit. Call and suck out.
Troyble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 10:50 AM   #10
bulls_horn
Pooh-Bah
 
bulls_horn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,402
Re: 1/2nl,mid set facing raise on flush turn

{Please read the stickies before posting another hand history. The lack of formatting makes the hh hard to follow.}

Being oop with a multi-way pot, you might consider checking to let the preflop aggressor to fire again, with the intention of either calling or raising (raise for sure if more than one Vil VP$IV). 11x is pretty high raise pre imo, so the PA will likely c-bet. Give him some rope to hang himself.

As played to the turn, I probably just ship. It's 100 to call getting ~5:1, you have about 150ish behind...just get it in. You're never folding here. Maybe, as someone else said, you're against TPTK, which is BEAUTIFUL, but if not you have outs to boat/quad up.
bulls_horn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 12:30 PM   #11
eldiesel
Pooh-Bah
 
eldiesel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 3,585
Re: 1/2nl,mid set facing raise on flush turn

I think shoving is terrible. Does anyone at 1/2 ever give a reverse tell to steal a pot? Until you see a guy do that, I'd figure the pissed off look than raise is nutted.

So $480 in the pot and you need to call another $100. That's 100/580 if you call, but V is never folding otr for your last $58, so we have a little IO. 100/638 = 16% on our money. And we're 20% to boat/quad up. So flat ott and shove if you boat otr, c/f if you don't boat otr.

There are only 3 combos of the nfd+TPTK. There are 6 of better sets. 3 of worse sets. And probably near 20 of flushes. I'm playing to the bulk of the range: flushes.
eldiesel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 12:33 PM   #12
pgcounty
veteran
 
pgcounty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: utg+1
Posts: 3,140
Re: 1/2nl,mid set facing raise on flush turn

Call turn.

Hope to fill up on the river, but check and see if you don't.
pgcounty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 12:39 PM   #13
PFunkaliscious
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,064
Re: 1/2nl,mid set facing raise on flush turn

Quote:
Originally Posted by losingisfun View Post
Tough spot, but I think betting turn is definitely right.
As played, I think shoving is bad, but folding getting 5-to-1 is worse. I guess shove and hope to fill up
this.

you can't fold for the price you are getting. you are most behind a flush here. but shoving is trivial.
PFunkaliscious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 12:42 PM   #14
PFunkaliscious
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,064
Re: 1/2nl,mid set facing raise on flush turn

Quote:
Originally Posted by eldiesel View Post
I think shoving is terrible. Does anyone at 1/2 ever give a reverse tell to steal a pot? Until you see a guy do that, I'd figure the pissed off look than raise is nutted.

So $480 in the pot and you need to call another $100. That's 100/580 if you call, but V is never folding otr for your last $58, so we have a little IO. 100/638 = 16% on our money. And we're 20% to boat/quad up. So flat ott and shove if you boat otr, c/f if you don't boat otr.

There are only 3 combos of the nfd+TPTK. There are 6 of better sets. 3 of worse sets. And probably near 20 of flushes. I'm playing to the bulk of the range: flushes.
he posted this becaue V has KK and he wants to know if the fact that V hated the flush turn card, can he ever explicitly put V on KK and save 138 dollars.


the answer: meh.... not really
PFunkaliscious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 12:54 PM   #15
eldiesel
Pooh-Bah
 
eldiesel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 3,585
Re: 1/2nl,mid set facing raise on flush turn

Quote:
Originally Posted by losingisfun View Post
Tough spot, but I think betting turn is definitely right.
As played, I think shoving is bad, but folding getting 5-to-1 is worse. I guess shove and hope to fill up
We have more than 2 options so we don't need to make a bad move.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PFunkaliscious View Post
this.

you can't fold for the price you are getting. you are most behind a flush here. but shoving is trivial.
$58 isn't trivial at 1/2.
eldiesel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 01:14 PM   #16
Willyoman
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Willyoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,468
Re: 1/2nl,mid set facing raise on flush turn

I like your flop donk bet. You're 4-way on an incredibly wet range-connecting board, and you can get tons of value from worse. I also think there's a risk it checks through, and pretty much the entire deck is action killing / improving cards to villains' hands. On a board like this, your flop lead can even get raised by plenty of worse hands.

I don't love the donk size. $50 is small, and you gotta think about stack sizes. I think we want to try to bet this flop and try to shove most turns.

As played, pretend he called your $100 turn bet.

You'd go to the river with $158 in stacks and a $380 pot. In addition, a lot of villains' ranges are draws and will call large flop and turn bets but fold rivers.

I'd probably almost pot the damn thing on the flop. $75-$80. You get called wide. That will help set up a turn shove against 1-2 callers. Though, in that scenario, I probably would consider checking the Th turn. It's like the worst card in the deck for you, especially if you were multi-way.

As played with the $50 flop bet and only the pre-flop raiser calling, I think continuing to fire here is OK. I do think you just have to shove now. Shoving is trivial. If you just call, you have over 80% of your stack in the middle ($272 of your $330). You just can't get away. If you call on the turn, the river pot is $580 and you'll have $58 left lol. Check/folding the river would be nuts.
Willyoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 02:26 PM   #17
maplestar
grinder
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 541
Re: 1/2nl,mid set facing raise on flush turn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyoman View Post
I like your flop donk bet. You're 4-way on an incredibly wet range-connecting board, and you can get tons of value from worse. I also think there's a risk it checks through, and pretty much the entire deck is action killing / improving cards to villains' hands. On a board like this, your flop lead can even get raised by plenty of worse hands.

I don't love the donk size. $50 is small, and you gotta think about stack sizes. I think we want to try to bet this flop and try to shove most turns.

As played, pretend he called your $100 turn bet.

You'd go to the river with $158 in stacks and a $380 pot. In addition, a lot of villains' ranges are draws and will call large flop and turn bets but fold rivers.

I'd probably almost pot the damn thing on the flop. $75-$80. You get called wide. That will help set up a turn shove against 1-2 callers. Though, in that scenario, I probably would consider checking the Th turn. It's like the worst card in the deck for you, especially if you were multi-way.

As played with the $50 flop bet and only the pre-flop raiser calling, I think continuing to fire here is OK. I do think you just have to shove now. Shoving is trivial. If you just call, you have over 80% of your stack in the middle ($272 of your $330). You just can't get away. If you call on the turn, the river pot is $580 and you'll have $58 left lol. Check/folding the river would be nuts.
Yup,this is the best advice im looking for.I fully agree with you about everything you said above.As played,i closed my eyes and shoved
maplestar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 02:44 PM   #18
samo
Pooh-Bah
 
samo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 4,022
Re: 1/2nl,mid set facing raise on flush turn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyoman View Post
.

I'd probably almost pot the damn thing on the flop. $75-$80. You get called wide. That will help set up a turn shove against 1-2 callers. Though, in that scenario, I probably would consider checking the Th turn. It's like the worst card in the deck for you, especially if you were multi-way.
Curious as to why you think Hero will get calls. Is it simply the typical LLSNLs who will call - unable to calc pot odds/implied odds?

I actually believe that sizing would be viewed as super strong into 3 opponents. Don't know what the table dynamics are, nor Hero image but I think smaller may be better due to the added benefit of potentially inducing a raise.
samo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 02:55 PM   #19
Willyoman
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Willyoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,468
Re: 1/2nl,mid set facing raise on flush turn

I'm assuming the average 1/2 villain is pretty loose/passive and likely to continue with with a range of hands including top pair and draws. I agree going smaller makes sense in a lot of situations, and I'd definitely agree with going smaller if we were a little shallower stacked, but I want to think about sizing here to help us get all in on turns.
Willyoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 03:08 PM   #20
maplestar
grinder
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 541
Re: 1/2nl,mid set facing raise on flush turn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyoman View Post
I'm assuming the average 1/2 villain is pretty loose/passive and likely to continue with with a range of hands including top pair and draws. I agree going smaller makes sense in a lot of situations, and I'd definitely agree with going smaller if we were a little shallower stacked, but I want to think about sizing here to help us get all in on turns.
i have awkward stack size though.You are correct that i should plan my hand ahead and think about shoving for one PSB on any non flush turn.As played,b/c makes no sense at all given $60 left.
maplestar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 03:24 PM   #21
maplestar
grinder
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 541
Re: 1/2nl,mid set facing raise on flush turn

Quote:
Originally Posted by eldiesel View Post
I think shoving is terrible. Does anyone at 1/2 ever give a reverse tell to steal a pot? Until you see a guy do that, I'd figure the pissed off look than raise is nutted.
Im fully aware of this upset look poker tells.Just because it means strong doesnt mean we shouldnt shove for our remaining $60 after calling his raise.Tells can help us if we are facing close decisions in many situations,but this is not the case here.
maplestar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 06:11 PM   #22
eldiesel
Pooh-Bah
 
eldiesel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 3,585
Re: 1/2nl,mid set facing raise on flush turn

^ I don't think it's close either. About 20% of the time you're ahead, 20% of the time you're drawing to only quads, and about 60% of the time you're against a flush. I don't know why you want to play perfectly against the 20% of the time V has AhKx or 66.
eldiesel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 06:27 PM   #23
maplestar
grinder
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 541
Re: 1/2nl,mid set facing raise on flush turn

Quote:
Originally Posted by eldiesel View Post
^ I don't think it's close either. About 20% of the time you're ahead, 20% of the time you're drawing to only quads, and about 60% of the time you're against a flush. I don't know why you want to play perfectly against the 20% of the time V has AhKx or 66.
So you invest whopping $270 and fold to his last $60 river bet given 1:11 pot odds.I just cant see this is a profitable strategy in the long run vs an unknown player even if i know his pissed off tell means he might hold flush the majority of the time.
maplestar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 07:52 PM   #24
eldiesel
Pooh-Bah
 
eldiesel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 3,585
Re: 1/2nl,mid set facing raise on flush turn

I'm not going near 100% on the tell, although I've never seen someone do it without a monster at 1/2.

What you already invested doesn't come into play. You can't get that money back. Your equity moving forward is what you need to think about.



Maybe this guy is insane and it's a pure bluff, I don't know. But given that he has sets/flushes/AhKx and nothing else in his range...

Quote:
Originally Posted by maplestar View Post
So you invest whopping $270 and fold to his last $60 river bet given 1:11 pot odds.I just cant see this is a profitable strategy in the long run vs an unknown player even if i know his pissed off tell means he might hold flush the majority of the time.
Why do you want to lose more than you need to when you are up against the flush. He priced you in to chase profitably if it's flush vs set right now. Shoving your last $58 is unnecessary and a losing proposition.

##############################

Call the turn and shove if you boat otr, c/f if you don't boat/quad up otr:

20% of the time we boat/quad up and get paid off. So we'll get what's in the pot before we call that 2nd $100 plus the $58 V will call otr.
(.2)*(538) = $107.60

80% of the time we call the $100 and c/f otr.
(.8)*(-100) = -$80

EV = $27.60

##############################

Shove ott:

80% of the time we don't get there otr and we lose $158
(.8)*(-158) = -$126.40

20% of the time we get there and take 538 that isn't in our stack right now
(.2)*(538) = $107.60

EV = -$18.80

##############################

All predicated on him having a flush right now, which is definitely some of the time, definitely not all, I don't know if he's capable of min-raise bluffing, etc.

But peg him for the flush, and the highest EV move is calling and waiting.
eldiesel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2014, 08:41 PM   #25
owlberteinstein
centurion
 
owlberteinstein's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 177
I would bet $80-$100 OTF. $50 seems small.

I'm shoving the turn all day and I'm never folding a set in a bloated pot for less than $60 on the river. It might be mathematically correct to do so but I'd rather take the -$18 EV or whatever it is to sleep easier at night.

Not the best turn card in the world. I'm shoving knowing I'm probably behind but hoping to boat up considering the decent pot odds.
owlberteinstein is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive