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Old 12-30-2016, 02:01 PM   #1
ZombieApoc21
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1/2NL: Having trouble finding V1's range

Hero is playing tight, but nobody seems to be taking this into consideration. Late 20's white male, collard and buttoned up shirt. Hero is in the bb, stack is $400, hand is 66.


V1 is super loose and in mp. Mid 40’s white guy, looks kind of nerdy and awkward and hasn't said much. He is playing very close to 100% vpip. Hasn’t been very aggressive in pots, but has gotten to the river with some weird hands and been the winner. Stack is effective $400. (I have seen him show one bluff in the 2 hours that I had been playing with him.)

V2 seems to be pretty straight forward to this point. Asian man in his 50’s, $5 button straddle, stack is effective $400.

Hero calls $5, a mp player limps, V1 limps, button straddle(V2) raises to $15, all players call. I feel like stacks are deep enough and players are fishy enough to offset my terrible position. I am not sure if this enough to overcome my poor position though, thoughts?

Pot: $60
Flop: 353x

All players check to the V2, who bets $25. I think that my hand is in very good shape here, and I don’t think V2 will continue to bet after the flop if he gets some calls. I call, and V1 calls. Thoughts?

Pot: $135
Turn: 4

I think this is one of the better cards for me. I check to control the pot, and all players check. V2 looks to be uninterested in the pot at this point. Thoughts?

Pot: $135
River: 2

I think that this is a great card for me at first, but then I second guess myself. I throw out a small bet, with the intention to bet fold. I don’t feel that these players have the ability to bluff raise on the river. I bet $45, because I think that V1 & V2 are both pretty weak here, but hope that they have a pair or possibly trips that they can call with.

V1 raises to $200 and V2 quickly mucks. I take a good amount of time to think. V1 looks very comfortable. I think that V1 could have any A and be thinking that he is good. He could have also backed into some flushes. I think that there are also some 6’s in his range but probably unlikely for obvious reasons.

Thoughts on all streets?

Last edited by ZombieApoc21; 12-30-2016 at 02:09 PM. Reason: Clerical error
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Old 12-30-2016, 02:14 PM   #2
Flate
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Re: 1/2NL: Having trouble finding V1's range

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Originally Posted by ZombieApoc21 View Post
Thoughts on all streets?
Pre, flop, and turn look good to me. I'm probably betting closer to $80-90 on the river, which makes it an easier bet/fold, IMO.

Would V1 raise most hands containing an A pre-flop? If so, I'm folding. If not, and you think he's likely to raise hands containing an A on this river, I'm calling.

Last edited by Flate; 12-30-2016 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 12-30-2016, 02:17 PM   #3
Dochrohan
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Re: 1/2NL: Having trouble finding V1's range

Need to bet bigger on river.

As played.

You really said a lot about our V but also gave very little in terms of history.

From your described V, I have no idea what he raises pre-flop. What his limping ranges look like.

It's hard to imagine him having any 6x straights. Tis is a flush, boats,or Ax straights. The issue lies with what Ax limps pre-flop. and c/c this flop. Then just re-raises river.

With 100% vpip, it's really tough to find a fold here on river.

I probably still do. People don't bluff raise rivers enough and I doubt Ax is re-raising this river.

I think he filled up with 23/55/34.
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Old 12-30-2016, 02:36 PM   #4
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Re: 1/2NL: Having trouble finding V1's range

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Originally Posted by Dochrohan View Post
Need to bet bigger on river.

As played.

You really said a lot about our V but also gave very little in terms of history.

From your described V, I have no idea what he raises pre-flop. What his limping ranges look like.

It's hard to imagine him having any 6x straights. Tis is a flush, boats,or Ax straights. The issue lies with what Ax limps pre-flop. and c/c this flop. Then just re-raises river.

With 100% vpip, it's really tough to find a fold here on river.

I probably still do. People don't bluff raise rivers enough and I doubt Ax is re-raising this river.

I think he filled up with 23/55/34.
Villian filling up is definitely a possibility but I find it unlikely because of the turn action unless Villian held 22. Personally I would have fired on the turn and think that would have changed the dynamics of the hand. I am calling here against this Villian.
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Old 12-30-2016, 03:23 PM   #5
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Re: 1/2NL: Having trouble finding V1's range

Ck-c riv
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Old 12-30-2016, 03:29 PM   #6
ZombieApoc21
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Re: 1/2NL: Having trouble finding V1's range

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Originally Posted by Dochrohan View Post
Need to bet bigger on river.

As played.

You really said a lot about our V but also gave very little in terms of history.

From your described V, I have no idea what he raises pre-flop. What his limping ranges look like.
Great Point!

For some context, here is a hand that I had played previously with V1:

I was waiting until the button to rebuy, and thus only have $90 in my stack after take a beat to a turn, river flush to my overpair from a different player.

V1 is otb in this hand. I have KQ in mp. One limp to me, I raise to $15, two players behind call including V1, and the ep limper. Flop is Q85r. Checks to me, I bet $45. Two players behind me call, ep limper folds. Turn is 4x. I put my last $30 in. One player folds, V1 says “I guess I am gambling” and calls. River is a 7, and fish says “two pair” and shows 87, nh,
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Old 12-30-2016, 04:07 PM   #7
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Re: 1/2NL: Having trouble finding V1's range

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Originally Posted by ZombieApoc21 View Post
V1 is otb in this hand. I have KQ in mp. One limp to me, I raise to $15, two players behind call including V1, and the ep limper. Flop is Q85r. Checks to me, I bet $45. Two players behind me call, ep limper folds. Turn is 4x. I put my last $30 in. One player folds, V1 says “I guess I am gambling” and calls. River is a 7, and fish says “two pair” and shows 87, nh,
Villain probably isn't thinking out it but he is actually priced in with a pair and gutshot straight draw because your turn bet is so small.

As for the hand you asked about, villain is described as loose and sticky but not aggressive and that is what your sample hand shows. That being the case I think folding when he raises river is best. Villain can have a lot of hands but the only ones you beat are bluffs, some straights and over played trips. You chop or lose to other straights, lose to flushes and lose to boats.

Betting the river small was a mistake. When villain is on a wide range of hands, some of which are ahead and some behind a small bet just confuses the issue most of the time. Villain can be betting worse thinking they are ahead which makes getting any read impossible. Another problem is that a small river bet might prompt a bluff from a villain that won't normally bluff. Either bet the river strongly enough that you can easily fold to a raise or check/call the river.
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Old 12-30-2016, 05:44 PM   #8
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Re: 1/2NL: Having trouble finding V1's range

I'd probably X/c here. If we were in position im more inclined to b/f when checked to making it a slightly meatier bet to filter out any "maybe I induced with a weak bet" noise. But with v2 seemingly disinterested we would almost exclusively be targeting Ax of v1.

As played villain should be calling with Ax straights rather than raising with the worst of 3 possible straights on a paired board with a bdf. Since we have explicitly identified him as not one to bluff raise rivers we can fold. He does have boats and nut flushes in his range.
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Old 12-30-2016, 05:54 PM   #9
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Re: 1/2NL: Having trouble finding V1's range

checking the straight on river seems really nitty. You're rarely ever getting bluff raised.

You allow 3 of a kind to check back.
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Old 12-30-2016, 06:14 PM   #10
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Re: 1/2NL: Having trouble finding V1's range

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Originally Posted by Dochrohan View Post
checking the straight on river seems really nitty. You're rarely ever getting bluff raised.

You allow 3 of a kind to check back.
I bet both Vs are thinking the same thing with Ax.
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Old 12-30-2016, 06:15 PM   #11
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Re: 1/2NL: Having trouble finding V1's range

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I bet both Vs are thinking the same thing with Ax.
4 card straight boards with the nut low straight, people don't bluff to often the rare one if the 4 card wheel because people b morons.

But the idea is, it's not happening enough and we can set the value price vs those Ax vs them setting some goofball small size.

I think c/c the Ax straight here, would be better in theory but the 6x is bad. I'm never betting the low end of the straight here.
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Old 12-31-2016, 05:47 PM   #12
ZombieApoc21
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Re: 1/2NL: Having trouble finding V1's range

What I am gathering from the commentary thus far, is that the sizing of my river bet really through a wrench into matters. In retrospect, I think that I should have probably bet out about $75-$100. I don't really like check/calling, just because I feel like I am leaving a lot of value on the table. I also don't like check/calling, due to the fact that there is so little bluff raising going on at these low stakes and the games that I play.

Just an addendum to see if it affects the thoughts on the holdings of the villain: There is a high hand promotion going on in the room and the minimum qualifying hand is a full house. Villain is aware of the promotion, and still did not show his hand. I am almost certain that villain is the type that would show his hand for a shot at the high hand promo, and is not going meta enough to know what the current high hand is and to consider he is beat and muck a qualifying, but losing hand. Thus, I must eliminate full houses from villains range of hands.

This really doesn't matter to how I should have planned this hand, or any critique of my line. Just looking to see anyone's thoughts in light of this note.
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