In theory, I can agree with you, but in practice, very very few LLSNL Vs bluff rivers anywhere near what online players would consider often enough. Even 2+2 ex-online grinders don't, just because they've learned how very sticky LLSNL players are, and they are tired of torching money (especially since most live players are significantly under-rolled, there being no live micros).

Without a solid read that a given V bluffs river scare cards, I'm really not worried about offering Vs IOs, as I can exploitaively fold when they get aggressive after the draw came in.

This shows how little you understand about adjustments to live (multiway) poker. You really should try to open up your mind here.

Not attacking, just saying i used to post stuff similar to above ~3 years ago.

$10 open is fine. $6-$8 might be better, Im still not sure.

Limping would also be fine.

Good post. Theory and what online grinders "consider" as the right bluff ratio would be, have nothing to do with what the average 1/2 villain actually do at the table.

The point of most live players being constantly underrolled (scared money,just a few buyins from busto and out of the game until they can refill with cash) is a great valuable point, and it manifest itself so so often from the way our opponents play at the tables. You cant get countless examples, not bluffing is just one reliable example of many.

Just one other example is how many liveplayers i play against regurarly doesent 3 bet QQ or AK. Sometimes i get curious and just ask them half jokingly half serious why they dont reraise with those hands,this type of answer is what i get almost everytime: "Nah, i could be up against KK or AA you know and i dont want to lose my whole stack. I would rather see the flop with AK, cause often i miss the flop".

Online players also have a HUD which throws all the number right into their face. They dont have to use a read to calculate what the guy's bluff ratio is. Its handed to them on a silver platter

Are you giving bad advice on purpose? To try and make games softer?

+1

not everybody playing online is using a HUD. though i'd probably win a lot more if i bothered to use one.

@cica

If im being honest i was trying to trigger you a bit.

But no, my advice is sincerely how I approach the game. I have gone on a significant heater since changing my open size to 3x.

Ive posted it a trillion times and posters such as yourself ignore the idea, but there is a lot of complexity to 50% see flop 9 handed tables...and opening to a large threshold sizing may not be the best approach. I used to think it was, but Im pretty sure I was wrong. I think a very good tag with this approch will likely cap out at 5-7bb/hr.

I started after seeing some exceptional live players opening small and also after reading some of Ed Miller's material online. Ive also discussed with some very good (and open minded) online regs that have heavily studied solvers and AI. I was surprised to finally find people that knew what I was talking about...and they came from online backgrounds...where you'd assume they'd lean towards much more aggression.

Im not sure Miller's reasons are correct as I have not directly read his literature, but the results are noteworthy. I believe this approach will net 8-12bb/hr, though again I'm not certain.

My fav are those who limp/call with with KK/QQ because they are concerned an Ace will come on the river


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How many hours have you played with this 3x open strategy?
The reason I ask is that we have a reg who uses this & all the long term winners that I know thinks it's ridiculous.

He opens to 3x in EP with anything he plays from EP.
He raises 3x +1 preflop. Or, is someone opens for 3x, if he raises, it is 9x +1. He has an extension poker book library & a very good memory.

He has been doing it for years & it's not working, as he has had to take a part time job.

Somewhere in between 200 and 400 hours, hard to say off the top of my head bc I have played so much plo this year (where i limp 100%, lol)

The sample heater tho isnt entirely what Im basing my results off of, its just playing out hands and seeing that 7 people calling your 3x raise when you have AJs isnt a bad thing.

Ive posted alot on this and wish i archived some of it when the concepts were fresh in my mind. Now i just autopilot it as a standard.

Basically, we'd prefer to be heads up. But if we cant be heads up, then we become indifferent between 3 and 9 people seeing the flop. In fact, we may welcome additional vpips, bc we are playing for nut value at that point. We have A high.

Also, when it does go 2-3 ways, I now can see many more turns. This is one of the biggest reasons i enjoy the 3x. I like turns.

you open for what will get called(or not if thats what you want). sticking to 3x or 5x or 7x is stupid. in my opinion picking different sizes preflop is an arsenal of weapons and having a singular sizing or a formulaic sizing is limiting. why do that? well if you think your opponents will be able to figure out your preflop holdings based on your preflop sizing then sticking to a single size might be advantageous. but dont be so predictable. use your different preflop sizing to confuse people. ive heard my opponents tell me countless times i thought you had a big pair when i held something speculative just because i sized it right or they dont believe that i do have a big pair. it can go both ways. but i definitely think varying sizing preflop is hugely +EV if you do it right.

also im ok with betting smaller preflop but in the game i play a 9x open gets at least 1caller most of the time it seems like lol. so why bother to size smaller with my big hands against those players? a lot of people will call large raises preflop just to suck out on your perceieved big pair and then play fit or fold on the flop. easy money.

Please take the opening size argument to its dedicated thread here.

Cliffs: Some very serious players who have crushed both OL and live advocate opening small, though most LLSNL players remain unconvinced.