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Old 05-25-2015, 05:38 AM   #1
turbo-travis
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$1/2 Wierd spot facing an overbet against with turned top pair

--The villain sat down about an 3 hours prior to this spot. He is the only person that was re-raising at the table for value. I believe he just busted out of a $1k re-buy tournament so couldn't tell if he was playing a higher variance style or was just catching hands. Every pot before this hand he has re-raised my C-bets (seriously every one) I felt like I had to actually fight back against some of his floats/semi-bluffs.

-table is 7 handed at the moment. I'm playing looser than my normal game but I felt like I was playing well post flop.

UTG limps, Villian in HJ limps, Hero on button has A3 raised to $12 (Hero has roughly $400), SB fold, BB calls, UTG calls, Villian calls

FLOP ($44 in pot)

109 4

UTG checks, Villian checks, Hero bets $20, BB folds, UTG folds, Villain raises to $60.

(((this is where i made a bad decision I feel but I had a developed plan of what I was going to do on turns. I felt like I could make a move for the pot on certain turns against this guy because he was re-raising me every hand. I decided if the turn was coming a heart I would Raise/Bet big to put pressure on a perceived wide range )))

Hero calls $40 raise.

Turn ($164 in pot)

A

Villain goes All in for ($310)


Hero ?????????????


---This is a really wierd spot that I think I leveled myself on. Is this ever a call against an super aggressive Villian?
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Old 05-25-2015, 06:00 AM   #2
djevans
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Re: $1/2 Wierd spot facing an overbet against with turned top pair

Fold pre -

Check flop fold flop

fold to raise on flop

These are the kinds of players you want to hit a strong hand against and just call them down.

I'm not sure if A3 is strong enough to do that once you hit your top pair. He Ether has 2 pair T9/A9 some combo draw like J8 / flush draw / sets - i really doubt he has complete air.

Put that range into a stove and see if you have enough equity to call with A3. I personally think your mistake was pre flop and there as no reason to make this pot big especially vs the villain type at your table. calling here is very high variance so if you have the roll you could finally take a stand but you are super deep to be calling this off vs a good player. Be careful what you raise pre with

His jam is very strange though - and looks like he wants you to fold but he has a lot of equity
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Old 05-25-2015, 06:12 AM   #3
turbo-travis
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I have the roll. But I was just so confused by the overbet on a super draw heavy board.
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Old 05-25-2015, 10:30 AM   #4
au4all
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Re: $1/2 Wierd spot facing an overbet against with turned top pair

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo-travis View Post
Every pot before this hand he has re-raised my C-bets (seriously every one) I felt like I had to actually fight back against some of his floats/semi-bluffs.
When you open junky hands like A3o, you're going to hit a flop strong enough to value-bet less than 10% of the time. Knowing you're not going to be able to continuation bet profitably why did you open A3o?

It sounds like the Villain (and everyone else since no one folded to your raise) is playing perfectly:
1. Against your range
2. Against your actual hand
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Old 05-25-2015, 11:23 AM   #5
TTBH240
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Re: $1/2 Wierd spot facing an overbet against with turned top pair

There's nothing about this hand that I like.

I admire your willingness to be the aggressor, but hands like A3o are just terrible. Fold pre.

Flop play is FPS, no doubt. You're just simply trying to outplay your Vs and shove them off hands. It doesn't work often enough in LLSNL. Then your FP gets punished when you hit top pair and end up stacking off. You're right, you leveled yourself. Vs are just never bluffing when they shove twice the pot here. At least not in the games I play.

You said you were playing looser then normal because you were playing well post-flop. Well, with all due respect, you didn't show it in this hand.
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Old 05-25-2015, 11:52 AM   #6
battagd1
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Re: $1/2 Wierd spot facing an overbet against with turned top pair

I actually do believe that this villan has air because he's raising you too often and the A on turn allows him to shove and rep a hand.

Unfortunately all you can beat is a bluff as you have no kicker so I fold here.

You can bust this guy but have to wait for better hands and make him pay for it when you actually have it.
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Old 05-25-2015, 01:34 PM   #7
jambre
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Re: $1/2 Wierd spot facing an overbet against with turned top pair

Pre and flop is bad. fold pre and check back flop.

Definitely call the turn as he has so many draws in his range or just airball.
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Old 05-25-2015, 06:44 PM   #8
DaYu
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Re: $1/2 Wierd spot facing an overbet against with turned top pair

don't raise this trash PF.

Just fold, or limp if you feel compelled to play your button.
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Old 05-25-2015, 08:09 PM   #9
Illmatikk
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Re: $1/2 Wierd spot facing an overbet against with turned top pair

Fold pre, c/f flop, turn is close, but I'd lean toward a call if villain is splashing around as much as you say he is. You said villain almost always raises your C-Bets, so wait for a hand better than A3o to let him hang himself and avoid spots like these.
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Old 05-25-2015, 11:12 PM   #10
RAHZero
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Re: $1/2 Wierd spot facing an overbet against with turned top pair

PF is bad. A3o is not a hand you want to play in a multiway pot, even if you do have the button. If everyone folded to you on the button, then this is a fine PF raise, but definitely not with 2 limpers.

Flop c-bet is bad. This board texture is very likely to hit a limp-calling range, and you're facing 3 opponents with nothing but a backdoor FD. Once villain raises flop, you need to fold as well. Yes, villain can have a wide range here, but if your plan is to hope that the turn comes a heart, and then hope that you can get him to fold, it's a plan with a very low chance of success.

Turn is actually close, he should have a decent amount of draws in his range, but also can show up with 44/T9s and maybe AT. He's also jamming for 2x pot so you need to be good here a lot (40% equity) to call in this spot.
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Old 05-25-2015, 11:13 PM   #11
matzah_ball
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Re: $1/2 Wierd spot facing an overbet against with turned top pair

Quote:
Originally Posted by battagd1 View Post
I actually do believe that this villan has air because he's raising you too often and the A on turn allows him to shove and rep a hand.

Unfortunately all you can beat is a bluff as you have no kicker so I fold here.
????????????

Fold pre, check flop, fold flop.

But call now
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Old 05-25-2015, 11:29 PM   #12
Willyoman
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Re: $1/2 Wierd spot facing an overbet against with turned top pair

Yup, fold pre, check flop, fold flop.

But I also fold turn. Like RAH said, we need 40% equity. That's a lot of equity.

We block the nut flush draw.

I actually think stacking off here is a pretty big mistake. I mean, for people who are calling - let's pretend you got to the turn with your entire range (which is kinda what we did). What hands do you call? Apparently you call A3o. I assume you would also of course call A2o.

How about JJ? QT? 66? 22? K-high? Why?

Aren't you kind of saying villain is so polarized that the turn A doesn't actually change much?

Are you calling down on the turn with A-high if the turn is an offsuit 2?

Help me understand the difference in this spot facing this action between A3o on Th9d4hAs and A3o on Th9d4h2s. And if we are calling with A3o on the turn A, help me understand why you would or wouldn't also be calling on the turn 2 (surely we beat all his "bluffs" still, right?). Then help me understand how calling with nearly your entire possible/likely range on the turn would be correct.

I think there are a lot of mistakes in this hand but that calling turn might be the worst.
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Old 05-26-2015, 12:37 AM   #13
Case2
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Re: $1/2 Wierd spot facing an overbet against with turned top pair

I don't think this is a great line, but if you're going to try it once in a while for balance or whatever, I think there might be a few tweaks.

If you're going to raise here, raise bigger. $12 is like a little pot sweetener. (Unless you're raising small to try to make it look like you've got a big hand, but I think you're leveling yourself). I'd go $18+ here.

Cbet bigger. Put out a robust 2/3 pot or so. Less than half the pot will often be seen as weakness. (Is that actually a sign of weakness from you?)

If you think V's PF calling range is wide and if you think his c/r has large amounts of air in it, then make your move on the flop. Pretend you raised with TT+ and got some callers. Now you're getting action, but the board is pretty wet, so you've got to get money in to get value from draws. Turn cards aren't likely to give you a better story.

Unfortunately, your raise was small, your cbet was small, and this flop does hit a lot of a preflop caller's range (especially for a small raise). Give up when he c/r the flop.

I confess I don't completely follow the idea of calling the shove. It does look bluffy, but it's a big bet and I like to see some good evidence that V bluffs like that before I donate a bunch of chips to him.

More generally, V is presumably bluffing too much and therefore putting too much money in pots with bad hands.

To exploit that, you generally want to slow play more and be more stationy. Bluffing a station is a terrible idea. Being a station when faced with a bluffer is a great idea.


Tighten up pre, with an even stronger preference for playing IP only.

Check more often with both made hands and hands that missed. Encourage him to bluff into you even more.

Often give up if you miss, but occasionally raise as a rebluff.

Generally call with your good hands. Sometimes raise very good hands.

Decide on the flop whether you're willing to go all the way with V. Calling flop and turn to fold river is a disaster against a player that's pounding the bluffs. If he's multi-street bluffing often enough, TPMK is pretty much good enough to stack off -- as long as he's driving the action.

Stay alert for indications that either your read was wrong or that he's compensating. Be aware that he could have raised every single one of your cbets because he happened to have great hands every time. It's not likely, but don't lose too many buy-ins figuring out your read was wrong.

Expect higher variance.
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Old 05-26-2015, 01:13 AM   #14
jambre
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Re: $1/2 Wierd spot facing an overbet against with turned top pair

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyoman View Post
Yup, fold pre, check flop, fold flop.

But I also fold turn. Like RAH said, we need 40% equity. That's a lot of equity.

We block the nut flush draw.

I actually think stacking off here is a pretty big mistake. I mean, for people who are calling - let's pretend you got to the turn with your entire range (which is kinda what we did). What hands do you call? Apparently you call A3o. I assume you would also of course call A2o.

How about JJ? QT? 66? 22? K-high? Why?

Aren't you kind of saying villain is so polarized that the turn A doesn't actually change much?

Are you calling down on the turn with A-high if the turn is an offsuit 2?

Help me understand the difference in this spot facing this action between A3o on Th9d4hAs and A3o on Th9d4h2s. And if we are calling with A3o on the turn A, help me understand why you would or wouldn't also be calling on the turn 2 (surely we beat all his "bluffs" still, right?). Then help me understand how calling with nearly your entire possible/likely range on the turn would be correct.

I think there are a lot of mistakes in this hand but that calling turn might be the worst.
Surely you must be able to see that when we have A top pair vs having bottom pair/A high that villain loses his pair outs if he has a hand like XXhh or open ended straight draw or even XX rags. The equity difference is quite large.
We also beat hands like 9xhh OTT which we wouldn't with Ahi/bottom pair. Vs 2 pairs without the ace we are not drawing dead either.

Blocking nfd is a good thing because we don't beat that with our kicker.
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