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1/2: whiffed big draw, bluff river now? 1/2: whiffed big draw, bluff river now?

11-12-2014 , 06:35 PM
Hero:mid 20's in a hoodie, fairly new table but I've shown down 2 winners so I have a good image so far.

Villainlder guy in his 60's, just sat down 20 min ago.

We played one hand together before this where I raised UTG and cbet a K72r and chk/folded the turn on a bad barrel card.
I have about 125bb's and villain has about 100bb

Folds to me in CO, I raise to $6 /w KJ and sb flats. bb folds

Flop Q24 i cbet 8 and villain calls.

Turn 9 I bet $15 and villain calls

River 3 Should I be betting this card? Obviously I missed and have K high, but is he ever folding a Q here? Should I be betting to get him to fold his missed draws as well? Under bet maybe? Would like to hear thoughts on this because I went back and forth.
1/2: whiffed big draw, bluff river now? Quote
11-12-2014 , 07:36 PM
Minimal reads don't really help. I think your sizing needs to be larger pre, on the flop and on the turn. You just can't ever bet enough to get a Q to fold this river. Especially since the draws all missed. Vs old guys they normally have it once they call 2 streets.
1/2: whiffed big draw, bluff river now? Quote
11-12-2014 , 08:24 PM
He's not folding a Q here. I'm checking river most of the time. Could get behind a small bet (say 20 into 60) hoping to get him to lay down the A high flush draw.
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11-12-2014 , 08:26 PM
Also, isn't v in the small blind? Don't we have position?
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11-12-2014 , 08:34 PM
Probably giving up. He isn't folding a queen. Probably better off betting turn big. Best chance to get a fold because of fear of big river bet coming, and your hand still has a ton of equity.

Plus you set up for big river value bet when you hit.
1/2: whiffed big draw, bluff river now? Quote
11-13-2014 , 05:05 AM
You need to work on your betting sizing here, especially on the turn. I would generally make your bets slightly bigger, like raising $10 pre-flop in this situation. I would probably go $15 on the flop and $40 on the turn. I agree with fitz, with larger bets there is a better chance you can get V to fold Qx and other medium strength hands that can fold under pressure.
1/2: whiffed big draw, bluff river now? Quote
11-13-2014 , 05:25 AM
Agree with above, all bets need to be bigger. You have a decent draw, but none of your outs are to the nuts so you have some problems if you hit. Your bet sizing needs to be big and scary and say "I have A's." If he's not scared of A's/AQ he got lucky and hit a strong hand. Your #1 most desired outcome is that he folds, because you are bluffing. Yes semi-bluffing with your draws, but it's still a bluff. Bet big, then maybe 1/5 pot baby bet on the river to get Axdd to give up and fold, but usually old men aren't drawing to flush draws OOP, I'd probably just check it down on the river.

As played, check it down and give up, hand is FUBAR, he almost never has Axdd here and won't conceivably fold anything else unless you overbet which is too risky for my taste and which he might correctly interpret as a desperate final miss bluff.

He cold called a raise from the blinds and held on for two streets so I'm ranging him pretty narrow, AQ and KQ. Although your bet sizing was small so QJ, QT, Q9 might be in there as well.

Last edited by Thorware; 11-13-2014 at 05:32 AM.
1/2: whiffed big draw, bluff river now? Quote
11-13-2014 , 05:31 AM
We never get here if we check this turn.
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11-13-2014 , 10:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonic1223
Hero:mid 20's in a hoodie, fairly new table but I've shown down 2 winners so I have a good image so far.

Villainlder guy in his 60's, just sat down 20 min ago.

We played one hand together before this where I raised UTG and cbet a K72r and chk/folded the turn on a bad barrel card.
I have about 125bb's and villain has about 100bb

Folds to me in CO, I raise to $6 /w KJ and sb flats. bb folds

Flop Q24 i cbet 8 and villain calls.

Turn 9 I bet $15 and villain calls

River 3 Should I be betting this card? Obviously I missed and have K high, but is he ever folding a Q here? Should I be betting to get him to fold his missed draws as well? Under bet maybe? Would like to hear thoughts on this because I went back and forth.
need more info on the villain but from my experience players in their 60s do not like to fold tpgk and is never folding tptk on this board texture. unless you guys have a lot of history and villain knows you are never three barreling without a set/two pair (but really what two pair are you repping here?). very bad turn and river for you to try and bluff here.
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11-13-2014 , 02:19 PM
Everyone itt talking about bluffing v off a queen, wtf. Yes obviously he doesnt fold a q, if he folds ace high, and if he calls 2 streets with 55-88 (which he might well as u made it so cheap) we can think about bluffing here.

flop/turn sizing is horrible. pot turn pls thx

Edit: to expand, i am sorry but just because a player is old does not necessarily mean his continuing range oop to 2 small bets is tp+, just because he's old doesn't mean he's an awful nit. He could have A4 of spades, he could be sticking around with a weak pocket pair... We win here sometimes as well. I do check back here because you can't rep much and he can have sets/flushes sometimes.

Last edited by sloppyfred; 11-13-2014 at 02:26 PM.
1/2: whiffed big draw, bluff river now? Quote
11-13-2014 , 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sloppyfred
Everyone itt talking about bluffing v off a queen, wtf. Yes obviously he doesnt fold a q, if he folds ace high, and if he calls 2 streets with 55-88 (which he might well as u made it so cheap) we can think about bluffing here.

flop/turn sizing is horrible. pot turn pls thx

Edit: to expand, i am sorry but just because a player is old does not necessarily mean his continuing range oop to 2 small bets is tp+, just because he's old doesn't mean he's an awful nit. He could have A4 of spades, he could be sticking around with a weak pocket pair... We win here sometimes as well. I do check back here because you can't rep much and he can have sets/flushes sometimes.
nobody is saying v absolutely has a q here, op specifically asked if he can get v to fold a q here by triple barreling and the consensus so far is that no he can't. at least understand what op is asking before you start bashing what others are saying.

Last edited by student.of.da.game; 11-13-2014 at 02:54 PM.
1/2: whiffed big draw, bluff river now? Quote
11-13-2014 , 03:11 PM
bet. and yes, heīs not folding top pair.
also, just because itīs the live default play to bomb the pot at every opportunity possible when betting it isnīt as horrific by default as it seems to be the consensus here...
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11-13-2014 , 03:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sauhund
bet. and yes, heīs not folding top pair.
also, just because itīs the live default play to bomb the pot at every opportunity possible when betting it isnīt as horrific by default as it seems to be the consensus here...
please explain why we should bet here if you are advocating on going against the consensus. what exactly are we folding out here? flush draw (we are ahead against all flush draws other than Adxd), he could have 35 or some gutty here a small percentage of the time i suppose. the fact that the flop flush draw missed actually may entice the v to hero call with his 4x, 2x in my opinion if he had put us on a flush draw.
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11-13-2014 , 04:28 PM
I probably just open this hand for $8+ pre because having a chance to open the action in the CO is such a rare occurrence 9-handed that you don't need to open a consistent size.

As played, I probably just bomb flop and check back turn.

As played, why did we make flop and turn so small if it wasn't with the intention of stringing split pairs along, so we could have FE on the river? Not that I think this is a great river to bluff; I'm just curious. I do 2/3 PSB -> 1/2 PSB -> post-oak a fair amount of the time here, but it's pointless redlining when we have K-high.
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11-13-2014 , 05:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BetAgainst
We never get here if we check this turn.

Old men like to bet huh?

1 over card + 2nd nut FD ... Whatever, double barrel, make turn larger. C/f riv unless you need your fix
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11-13-2014 , 05:26 PM
Discard previous comment. kept forgetting we are IP through my thought process. Sigh and idfk good post iguess
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