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Old 03-11-2019, 10:35 PM   #1
ColorBlindDude
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$1/2 Weird river spot with 2nd nuts

Sat down less than hour ago. V1 is standard weak tight old man, has ~155$. V2 has a 1K stack, I haven't seen him play before but he doesn't look that confortable at the table (doesn't have his 5 stack in 20s for example). This is what I have gathered so far. I have 250$ in my stack. On to the hand;

V1 opens 10$ EP, V2 flat from the BTN and I flat from BB looking down at QsJs.

Flop Pot 31$

4hAdTs

Flop checks through.

Turn Pot 31$

Ks

Bink! I turn the gutter with the redraw to the straight flush. I lead out 25$, V1 snap calls and V2 thinks for a couple seconds and calls.

River Pot 100$

5s

Went from the nuts to the second nuts. I bet 65$. V1 calls pretty quickly (He has 55$ behind) and V2 doesn't take too long before announcing all in. Puke... I sigh, and V1 announces Call out of turn (for his last 55). I would have to call my last 150$ into 380.

Hero?

I'm not scared much about V1, as he would probably rejam on the river with the nut flush. His call out of turn is just annoying at this point. Would V2 ever jam a worst flush, which is at best a 9high flush? Is this just a sigh fold?

Last edited by ColorBlindDude; 03-11-2019 at 10:38 PM. Reason: added info
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Old 03-11-2019, 11:26 PM   #2
branch0095
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Re: $1/2 Weird river spot with 2nd nuts

It sucks because all the broadway spades are spoken for expect the A, so Ax spades is going to be a disproportionate amount of his flush combos.

On the other hand I think that the flop checking through is a good thing for your situation. V2 is OTB, and while he can definitely check back some smaller Ax combos on this flop, I'd definitely expect him to bet a lot of them after the PF raiser checks, especially the Ax combos with the BDFD that we're concerned about here. Also with the flop checking through, it's possible V does just have some smaller spade combos that got to call turn in position 3 ways when he picks up a flush draw. Plus there are a lot of players that are more confident about lower flushes when they hit backdoor, as they think it's less likely someone else has a flush as well. I'm not saying this is the most sound logic, but some think this way.

Ultimately I'm just never folding here with the second nuts for this price. I'm definitely concerned about V2s river jam, but you're getting a little better than 2.5/1, it's not that much to have to call off, and I think V2 will have lower flushes enough given that the flop checked through.

Last edited by branch0095; 03-11-2019 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 03-11-2019, 11:27 PM   #3
TrubyKGB
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Re: $1/2 Weird river spot with 2nd nuts

I'm never folding. V2 checks backs the flop with top pair and a bdfd? That seems absolutely insane. Also the other call means nothing at this point.

As far as the turn goes I think it's a check. C/r gets as much money in as possible and if it ends up checking through it's not the worst case scenario. What other hands are we donking turn with? Always seems to be value heavy+value/draw type hands. Which is why I don't like the lead here.
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Old 03-11-2019, 11:56 PM   #4
RoadtoPro
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Re: $1/2 Weird river spot with 2nd nuts

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Originally Posted by branch0095 View Post
It sucks because all the broadway spades are spoken for expect the A, so Ax spades is going to be a disproportionate amount of his flush combos.

On the other hand I think that the flop checking through is a good thing for your situation. V2 is OTB, and while he can definitely check back some smaller Ax combos on this flop, I'd definitely expect him to bet a lot of them after the PF raiser checks, especially the Ax combos with the BDFD that we're concerned about here. Also with the flop checking through, it's possible V does just have some smaller spade combos that got to call turn in position 3 ways when he picks up a flush draw. Plus there are a lot of players that are more confident about lower flushes when they hit backdoor, as they think it's less likely someone else has a flush as well. I'm not saying this is the most sound logic, but some think this way.

Ultimately I'm just never folding here with the second nuts for this price. I'm definitely concerned about V2s river jam, but you're getting a little better than 2.5/1, it's not that much to have to call off, and I think V2 will have lower flushes enough given that the flop checked through.
+1. Btw I would fold pre, given that you're OOP and could easily be dominated.
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Old 03-11-2019, 11:58 PM   #5
ColorBlindDude
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Re: $1/2 Weird river spot with 2nd nuts

Don'y tou think it's time to get money in on the turn when we have turned the nuts? If you can assure me a turn bet when I check I would take this line 100% of the time to get the Max money in for sure but if I don't lead here what hands are Vs betting on the turn? Ax that somehow checked the flop, AK that somehow checked the flop, KT, TT, KK (and AK are prob only in initial raisers range since you assume V2 would 3bet those pre, 44, flush draws maybe but I block the combo draws. IMO leading bigger would be better, something like 40-45$ and it makes our river decision easier given the pot odds (assuming both call turn obv).
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Old 03-12-2019, 12:05 AM   #6
ChrisV
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Re: $1/2 Weird river spot with 2nd nuts

Instacall in view of flop checking through. Not folding even if that hadn't happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColorBlindDude View Post
Don'y tou think it's time to get money in on the turn when we have turned the nuts? If you can assure me a turn bet when I check I would take this line 100% of the time to get the Max money in for sure but if I don't lead here what hands are Vs betting on the turn? Ax that somehow checked the flop, AK that somehow checked the flop, KT, TT, KK (and AK are prob only in initial raisers range since you assume V2 would 3bet those pre, 44, flush draws maybe but I block the combo draws. IMO leading bigger would be better, something like 40-45$ and it makes our river decision easier given the pot odds (assuming both call turn obv).
Betting bigger just blasts everything out of the pot. The flop check-through suggests nobody is even as good as top pair OTT. Trying to get stacks in is a pipe dream in this spot.
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Old 03-12-2019, 12:11 AM   #7
BlindingLaser
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Re: $1/2 Weird river spot with 2nd nuts

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Originally Posted by ChrisV View Post
Instacall in view of flop checking through. Not folding even if that hadn't happened.



Betting bigger just blasts everything out of the pot. The flop check-through suggests nobody is even as good as top pair OTT. Trying to get stacks in is a pipe dream in this spot.
+1 to this -- I was starting to write a lengthy post explaining just this. V's calling ranges are almost certainly price elastic on this street, overbetting the pot is just throwing value away. We have nuts and redraw, just make a normal bet and hope somebody can find a call with a K or a T.
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Old 03-12-2019, 12:19 AM   #8
ColorBlindDude
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Re: $1/2 Weird river spot with 2nd nuts

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Originally Posted by ChrisV View Post
Instacall in view of flop checking through. Not folding even if that hadn't happened.



Betting bigger just blasts everything out of the pot. The flop check-through suggests nobody is even as good as top pair OTT. Trying to get stacks in is a pipe dream in this spot.
What is V2's range in your opinion on river? Would he jam a 9high flush? With the backdoor flush coming in do you think he ever jams KT, 44? Somehow jamming AsX, that was checked through on the flop, as a bluff? Complete spaz? me thinking about folding this hand would give value to the spaz tbf lol

Also, If you are V2, do you have to be somewhat concerned about V1's call on the river?
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Old 03-12-2019, 12:31 AM   #9
ChrisV
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Re: $1/2 Weird river spot with 2nd nuts

He's going to have a flush every time, it's just a matter of how big it is. In the passive world of LLSNL, it would be unusual for someone to jam a 9 high or worse flush here, but it would also be unusual for someone to check behind an ace in that spot OTF. Something unusual has happened, but I don't know which it is. That the guy looks like he hasn't played all that much poker tends to argue for the first option, since betting top pair and "has flush, go arrrrr in" is the level 0 approach in both spots.

V1 is irrelevant because in the case where we win, we're operating under the assumption that V2 isn't even considering that he might be overflushed. Also, it's obvious that V1 doesn't have a flush looking at his line in totality - i.e. a nit raising in EP but then not betting the ace flop, meaning he can't have like AQss (not to mention that he doesn't shove river).
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Old 03-12-2019, 01:23 AM   #10
Amanaplan
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Re: $1/2 Weird river spot with 2nd nuts

Called btn. Flop checked through. Guy overcalled turn w his flush equity. That river is a bink and he’s gonna jam it w any flush if he’s not a seasoned player. Call.
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Old 03-12-2019, 03:19 AM   #11
jshah
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Re: $1/2 Weird river spot with 2nd nuts

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Originally Posted by TrubyKGB View Post
I'm never folding. V2 checks backs the flop with top pair and a bdfd? That seems absolutely insane. Also the other call means nothing at this point.

As far as the turn goes I think it's a check. C/r gets as much money in as possible and if it ends up checking through it's not the worst case scenario. What other hands are we donking turn with? Always seems to be value heavy+value/draw type hands. Which is why I don't like the lead here.
+1 on this.

Though I don't think leading the turn is too bad at all, there's not many cards that are scary except for the spade and even then, the first reason is why we're not scared of Ax.
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Old 03-12-2019, 06:06 AM   #12
KID777777
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Re: $1/2 Weird river spot with 2nd nuts

Snap call
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Old 03-12-2019, 11:37 AM   #13
ColorBlindDude
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Re: $1/2 Weird river spot with 2nd nuts

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Originally Posted by ChrisV View Post
He's going to have a flush every time, it's just a matter of how big it is. In the passive world of LLSNL, it would be unusual for someone to jam a 9 high or worse flush here, but it would also be unusual for someone to check behind an ace in that spot OTF. Something unusual has happened, but I don't know which it is. That the guy looks like he hasn't played all that much poker tends to argue for the first option, since betting top pair and "has flush, go arrrrr in" is the level 0 approach in both spots.

V1 is irrelevant because in the case where we win, we're operating under the assumption that V2 isn't even considering that he might be overflushed. Also, it's obvious that V1 doesn't have a flush looking at his line in totality - i.e. a nit raising in EP but then not betting the ace flop, meaning he can't have like AQss (not to mention that he doesn't shove river).
V1 had AK fwiw lol.

I'm fairly new to live poker so I'm wondering are all LOLbad Vs jamming river with 9high flushes (as a population) if so it makes my decision very easy. I was under the impression that 99% of the time Vs just call with the lower flush. The fact that it's backdoor gives credence to Vs thinking they have a Monster.

Spoiler:

Last edited by ColorBlindDude; 03-12-2019 at 11:40 AM. Reason: added info
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Old 03-12-2019, 12:15 PM   #14
ColorBlindDude
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Re: $1/2 Weird river spot with 2nd nuts

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Originally Posted by ChrisV View Post

V1 is irrelevant because in the case where we win, we're operating under the assumption that V2 isn't even considering that he might be overflushed. Also, it's obvious that V1 doesn't have a flush looking at his line in totality - i.e. a nit raising in EP but then not betting the ace flop, meaning he can't have like AQss (not to mention that he doesn't shove river).
Are we ever expecting V1 to have a lower flush here? it would take out lower flush combos that V2 jams.

Someone else pointed out that V2 could have 98ss, 97ss, 96ss (maybe?), 78ss, 86ss, 67ss, 34ss that we beat. We are beat by A9ss, A8ss, A7ss, A6ss, A4ss (very unlikely since flopped checked through) A3ss and A2ss. So let's say 6 combos that he jams 100% of the time (if we discard A4ss) and 7 that we beat, but of those 7 how many are jamming river? Are we good 25% of the time? I think it's pretty close actually this is why I think it's an interesting spot!

Also this is just considering V2's ''perceived'' value range. Maybe he turns AsX into a bluff here but I would be shocked if this guy is even thinking about this.
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Old 03-12-2019, 12:20 PM   #15
canadiasian
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Re: $1/2 Weird river spot with 2nd nuts

With the KsQsJsTs spoken for, it's hard to come up with many lower flushes that V2 could have and would raise the river with.

However, he has all remaining AsXs combos, all of which are very likely holdings.

You need to have some kind of history with him to make this call (i.e. you know he knows he can blow you off a bigger flush with that bet sizing, etc.).

As played, and as unfortunate as it is, I would fold.
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Old 03-12-2019, 12:46 PM   #16
NittyOldMan1
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Re: $1/2 Weird river spot with 2nd nuts

just curious what is a standard BB defense range here at these stacks? QsJs is super tempting but still not convinced its profitable OOP when certain to be behind. id call but im not convinced thats right
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Old 03-12-2019, 12:54 PM   #17
ColorBlindDude
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Re: $1/2 Weird river spot with 2nd nuts

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Originally Posted by NittyOldMan1 View Post
just curious what is a standard BB defense range here at these stacks? QsJs is super tempting but still not convinced its profitable OOP when certain to be behind. id call but im not convinced thats right
That's a very good point, especially if we think about this hand as we are having a dream runout but we are still not satisfied by the river. It's hard to look down at suc ha beautiful hand (lol) and fold getting approx 1:3 on a call though
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Old 03-13-2019, 03:20 AM   #18
RottPhiler
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Re: $1/2 Weird river spot with 2nd nuts

Fist pump call. If he has it, he has it. Well played on all streets. This is just a cooler. It happens. Lol at folding QJs preflop.
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:05 AM   #19
shorn7
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Re: $1/2 Weird river spot with 2nd nuts

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Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
Called btn. Flop checked through. Guy overcalled turn w his flush equity. That river is a bink and he’s gonna jam it w any flush if he’s not a seasoned player. Call.
+1, especially because flop checked thru.
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