Hero (UTG: $600): Young 20s white kid playing TAG. Don't think I've even shown down a hand except calling a SS shove with AJ

V1 (MP1: $200): Young 20s white kid w/ yamaka. Awful LAGfish/action player. Thinks he's a great player. Will stab at flops with anything and overplay top pair heads-up. Called a 100BB 4! shove pre from V3 with 33 and cracked V3's AA.

V2 (CO: $250): Mid 20s white kid. Super passive and seems scared money - hasn't been involved in any big pots.

V3 (SB: $300): ABC MAWG.

V4 (BB: $800): Young 20s Asian guy. More interested in DraftKings on his phone. Made all his $$ off flopping two sets - seems tight hand selection wise but cold-called an open from V3 with 84 as first caller in a previous hand. Has played super straightforward post-flop.

Hero has AK and opens to $12 UTG.
V1 calls
MP2 calls
HJ calls
V2 calls
V3 calls
V4 calls

So I think I should have sized bigger than my standard open at this table. Usually I'm pretty good at adjusting my sizing for table dynamics but I sort of auto-piloted this one. Still 7 ways to the flop was not even remotely standard and was very unexpected.

Pot ($84)
Flop J84
Hero checks
V1 bets $30
MP2 folds
HJ folds
V2 calls
V3 calls
V4 calls
Hero ??

So Pot = $204 and its $30 to me. I close the flop action.

Is 2 overs + two nut backdoor draws enough equity to continue here or should we just be giving up? Obviously my A&K outs are not good a decent % of the time but no one seems to be super strong here and the board is pretty dry.


If we call, what are we doing on the following turns:
1. Ax
2. Kx
3. Q/T
4. Qo/To
5. X

I'm calling the flop, and mostly checking every turn except an offsuit king which I would lead.

just fold

At the table it's awfully tempting to think that you're priced in. Depending on how disciplined I am on any given day I might throw in my $30.

The problem is that you are very likely to be facing a bet on the turn no matter what happens next. If the turn is an A, or a K, or brings you a draw ... no matter what, you are unhappy having to call a bet on the turn, unless it is minuscule. And that could cost you money too if you call and there's a reraise later.

Seems like you have to muck.

If everyone at the table made a pact to check on the turn and see the river ... you could think about calling. But obviously that ain't happening.

i.e., your dreams of hitting a backdoor flush and felting a couple guys and making a huge payday aren't going to come true because 1. very unlikely to begin with 2. you'll be priced out on the turn when someone shoves, even if a diamond falls.

your dreams of an ace coming on the turn and then winning a cheap showdown after everyone checks the river ... not worth chasing. too little reward for an unlikely turn of events.

BTW, I'd be interested to see what other people think is an appropriate range for:

reraising

calling

I recommend putting your V's on a range of hands for each of them & stove it.
You're a 6.833:1 dog to turn top pair * $30 = $205.00

I very rarely pay to chase OOP, but when I do, I have much more equity than I think you do here.

If V4 wasn't involved I would just shove but since he is $600 effective just fold and move on.

It is a fold for reasons stated, but damn this is one of my leaks. I probably wouldn't have the discipline to fold the flop here.

Fold>>>>>>>>>shove>>>>call

This hand could have its own chapter in a "when not to chase" book.

It sucks you missed flop.

I think fold or call on the flop is ok to see what the turn brings.

I like your preflop raise unless you know that you have to raise more to get less callers at this table

Get to the river OOP and try getting paid enough when your BD flush comes home. [/sarcasm]

Any questions about why the games are still playable and profitable?


Because, the truth is:

I would add one more > between shove and call.

But otherwise, this.

/thread.

Cool, I agree on a fold here - just like bringing up the more interesting spots from my sessions to see what people think. Thanks guys.

LOL. When I read this I'm like "yeah, that seems about right"

Then I'm like "Fack, only ONE >....are you kidding me?"

My opinion and I realize I may be going out on a limb here and using a forbidden word.....but Imma like living on the edge so here goes.

NEVER call from this position, with this hand, on this board, with these opponents.

4 people in the hand and you want to make it 5? Nah. Calling and going to the turn 5 handed with that sounds like a really bad idea, but I'm of the opinion that a check-raise here would be a solid play.

Players like V2/3/4 are much harder to put on a hand in small pots. I feel like all 4 V's have huge ranges calling a $30 bet on the $84 flop. Based on your reads, I feel V2-4 are going to be easy to place at higher stakes, but right now it's too cheap to play mental chess; you're looking at just straight math. And like everyone has pointed out, your hand is not looking good on numbers.

Instead of calling, I would raise to 70, followed by a dark/snap check on the turn, representing a made hand that wants someone else to initiate the action for me. I would expect half to fold the flop and anyone calling to the turn will either check behind you or shove, giving you either a free card or clear bail signal. You have more than twice the stack of everyone else except the guy you say is super straightforward and easy to read post flop. Rev your engines a little and make everyone else wonder if they should float with the rock.

If you decide to call, then:
1 - Check, raise micro bet, call good size bet from V1, fold everyone elses good size bet
2 - Check, raise micro bet, call good size bet from V1, fold everyone elses good size bet
3 - Check, raise micro bet, fold good size bet
4 - Check, fold
5 - Check, raise micro bet, fold good size bet

This is the nut worst advice I have ever seen on 2+2.

Yah let's raise to $70 and give next to act 7:1 pot odds with another 3 behind. Way to think that one through.

I sweated over the number of >'s. But I'm open to the constructive criticism.

You keep using that word. I don't think you know what *solid means.


This thread is now officially headache inducing.

In B4 lock.

We're in agreement. Calling is lol bad and folding is standard. I was trying to capture where on the spectrum a jam comes in. FE is low, given V1. We could run into a monster anywhere. V4 could inflict maximum pain if he wakes from his slumber.