I've only been at the table for an orbit or so. Mostly loose-passive stations. No one has done anything noteworthy, just lots of limping, checking and calling. Neither V has made it to showdown since I sat down. Both villains are older white guys with $300 to $400 in front. Hero has $300.

A few limps and hero raises from the cutoff to $12 with J 9. This might be a bit loose, but no one knows me and I like to create a splashy image at first and then tighten up to get paid on big hands.

V1 and V2 both call, all others fold.

Flop: ($40) 5 8 J

V1 and V2 check, H bets $30. Both villains call.

Turn: ($130) 5 8 J 9

V1 and V2 check, H bets $75. Both villains call again.

River: ($280) 5 8 J 9 5

V1 and V2 check.

Do you value bet here or check it back? Sizing?

You are trying to get KJ to call here so Id bet $125ish. Sometimes I just make a repeat bet of 75 in these spots and get called a lot more often. I doubt a 5 is going to call the turn and QT/67 is probably going to raise the turn fearing that double FD board but in a loose passive game I could see 67 just calling here.

Id also probably just limp along with J9s pre but if you are comfy bullying these types of tables around I don't mind it.

I limp preflop but here we are

As AAJTo suggested, we're targeting primarily KJ and sometimes an optimistic QJs and perhaps a passive AJo on river. You'd think the only 5x that can make it to the river is As5s and 5d5s. Most QT should have already folded flop (except perhaps QcTc) and 55/QcTc should've raised the turn. I can't see what 98 can show up given that the 9s turns here. 67s should raise this turn although I suppose anything is possible.

The real issue is: how many of the combos we're initially targeting can really get to this river? How many of them can call a bet versus how many combos beat us?

H is uncapped and barreled the whole way, indicating to Vs that TPGK is beat. Therefore, how many KJ can get to river? We block the most likely KcJc that can show up on river and Js is on the board. So oddly enough, I think more QJ can get to river than KJ because of the gutter draw on the turn, but even then it seems unlikely as our bets have compressed Vs' ranges and the red QJs have no FD and kicker problems.

Thus, I think realistically we're targeting on this river only 8 more AJ and maybe two sticky QJ/KJ to target versus one As5s and perhaps one sneaky QcTc left on the river and maybe one odd 67s (I don't think TT can call a river bet). So I suppose we have to bet given the overwhelming combo advantage here.

I think we can bet 1/2 PSB on river. Only 2 98s, 1 As5s and 1 QcTC can raise and scare us. If we get raised, we're still likely good 1/2 of the time. So I'm value betting, not b/f.

So first, a small correction: if both villains called the turn, the pot is $355 on the river.

You have $180 left so there’s no real way we can bet-fold here. So our only goal is to get paid by an AJ kinda hand. Some factors to consider:

1. So is a $90 bet more than twice as likely to get called by AJ as a $180 jam?
2. ...If we are *beat*, *could* a $180 jam induce more folds than a $90 bet?

#2 isn’t fully academic. There aren’t many scenarios, but it’s *possible* that V1 specifically could fold a hand that beats you (facing a jam *and* a player left to act behind him.) Something like 5s6s doesn’t look all that great in that spot. Nor would QQ (unlikely holding but you never know at these stakes). Heck, if he’s a big enough nit, 67 or even 58 could find a fold.

The dream scenario is your $180 jam gets V1 to fold trips and V2 to call with KJ. Wouldn’t that be pretty!

But....I think our likeliest scenario is one of them has a jack and the other missed a draw. So I’m betting $90 and hoping for a call.

Then of course I’m “Sigh I call”-ing every raise unless V1 jams AND V2 calls it, lol.

(I just saw your subject line and: our hand is too strong to check.)

There are a ton of Jx in at least one of their ranges. JT, QJ, KJ and AJ. I can't see someone slow playing a turned str8 3ways tho I suppose it's possible. I don't mind betting river and everything from $100 to all-in is fine depending on opponents(s).

Pre is fine depending on BTN.

Not a big fan of the sizing pre; I'd either limp along or make it like $20. The latter has a chance of scooping some dead money or getting hu. Some of these older guys like to limp pretty strong pre(AJ, KQ, QJs, 77 etc) … if you're noticing that then limping along from the cutoff is just fine.

Flop and turn pretty straight forward, you got a sick board for J9cc here. River is a super easy value bet. With $183 left and a pot of $280 I think jamming might get even the strongest tp's to fold. I think $75-90 is best.

I also size up pre when we have limpers in front. I like the flop bet. I can go either way on the turn. Since we don't have reads your sizing is probably best but I often go larger. As noted above river pot size should be $355 and we have $180 left. I think Prince is right here. If we are value betting river it needs to be small to keep in Jx. $85 seems good. If we get raised I guess we have to call it off since AJ could think two pair with the J kicker is the nuts. I think reads come into play here as well. Were they insta-calling all the way. Did anyone look to consider raising or folding at any point?

Yeah I missed a $75 bet when I added up the pot. Sorry about that.

I ended up betting $100 after thinking about it for about 15 or 20 seconds. I thought KJ or AJ would call. I guess I could have shoved too. I don't think any 5 is folding for that price but I agree there shouldn't be a whole lot of 5s out there.

Results tomorrow morning.

Check flop - you need some flushes in your checking range and you can can continue on every turn.

WAT??? This is live 1/2. We don't need to balance and if for some reason we did this isn't the hand to do it with


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GTO isn't some imaginary balance beam where you check back hands randomly because you feel like.

It's higher EV to check heads up.

3 way it is a no brainer check.

Yeah that's what I said . Typical 1/2 player pools are dying to be exploited so not sure why we would ever deviate from that.

You need to know the theory before the exploit. Theoretically this is always a check. The exploit would be to bet. But the exploit here is lower EV so again it is still a check.

Exploit before Theory = Backwards poker. That exploitative foundation will crumble against better opposition so you might as well learn it now.

I highly doubt checking is higher EV against loose-passive stations. I'd also be surprised if this were a pure check at equilibrium if you feed a solver standard, wide limping ranges. I think it would actually be a high frequency bet. If you have a multi-way solver like monker then I'd love to see what it says.

River is a slam dunk shove. They are severely capped and sure they could have slow-played T7 or AA or something in a 3-way pot with half a bet left on a sopping wet board because lol-live poker, but they could also call with T9 because lol-live poker.

More pre less otf and just bet 3 streets on the smaller side w no info. As for checking back, in 25 hand/hr poker against players who yada yada, it’s good to know the theory (if that’s even accurate about checking back more often), but in practice just do what makes the most right then and there as if you have one hand to play for the evening.

But this is what theory does, too. GTO always takes the highest EV line. It may mix when multiple lines have the same EV.

Well yea if check and bet compete for EV then of course it mixes (id like to see it too). Really though, what bugs TF out of me w comments like Doodoo’s is that, sure, of course it’s theory first if you could choose, and sure, it’s pretty asinine to deviate from that by entering unknown ranges (that isn’t even part of gto-esque play right?) into the fray (because what hubris to think we really know better/the margin of error in our guesswork is still to big) BUTTTTTT how can we not also accept that modeling our play around all that theory is equally as hubristic w a similar margin of error? Doodoo is like, obvious check is obvious and you’re like, not sure about that bro (and you know your theory pretty good)... so maybe doodoo runs it and it crushes our conception of it all and it checks 90%, but man, not understanding the real reason why is just so complicated. Rant over before I go full ******

Shove river

I'm highly skeptical of anyone who offers poker strategy advice on hands without any explanation whatsoever of why a particular play is better or more +EV than another. Doo Doo saying that this is a no-brainer check without any reasoning why is a great example.

It's funny that against bad passive villains who limp and then call raises OOP some people still think about things like GTO.

Checking is higher EV - that's what you are not getting.

Also I did give a reason - it's because you need some flushes in your X back range.

Do you bet J9 here?

I normally don't like rules and I think Upswing is pretty hit or miss in general.

But literally rule #1 in their guide on how to play flush draws.



You're welcome.

lmao what the hell is that

Is there any hand here that's ahead of you that would check to you on the river? In the unlikely event they're still in with a 5 at this point, and they binked one, I think they're gonna bet on the river. If they made a straight on the turn, are they really just x/c on the turn and then checking it to you on the end? Even for a passive player, that seems really weak. Hands like JT and QJ just seem so so much more likely than some kind of made monster.

I think that betting is the move here for sure, so the question comes to sizing. Personally, I'd size down, because we're against 2 villains. Having them both call 90 is just as valuable as having one of them call 180. I'd throw something in the 75-100 range on there.

Just lol at applying GTO in a 1/2 player pool where the players are begging to be exploited. It's just laughable.

This is the most cliche response ever. If you think like this you really have no understanding of game theory.

Do you think GTO is some top secret strategy you only use against good players? It is very likely your "exploits" (we can't even call them exploits if you don't know the theory behind them so you are really just clicking buttons) will make much less $ than a theoretically sound game.

I like this buzzword salad along side your shtty gif. Yes, GTO is only used against good players because its a defensive strategy. I cant tell if this is advanced level trolling or not.