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Old 10-18-2017, 08:52 PM   #1
aojiru_sss
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1/2 turned top set on a dry board

V1: $500 stack, middle age asian guy, no reads otherwise
Hero: just transferred from other table, covers


Hero holds T T in CO

1 EP limper, Hero raises to $10, folds to V1 who calls from SB, the limper also calls

Flop ($32) 2 4 7

Checks to Hero, Hero c-bet $15. V1 checkraises to $45. Limper folds, Hero calls

Turn ($122) T

V1 continues for $60.

So we suddenly went from wanting to just call down most runouts to wanting to play for stacks. We're a little bit deep here but we'd like to get all the money in and I don't think check-calling and letting a heart roll is a good idea because I don't think that's what he has that often esp with my T but that's what he may think we have, and if he's drawing anyways I'm not sure we'll make very much money on the river if he misses compared to if I just charge him now. We want to raise here and jam river, but the question is how much? After the $60 bet V1's got just short of $400 more behind that, we wish he'd bet more than $60 but still feels pretty strong.
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Old 10-18-2017, 11:25 PM   #2
matzah_ball
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Re: 1/2 turned top set on a dry board

$180 or so and shove every river. Yay.
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Old 10-19-2017, 01:13 AM   #3
javi
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Re: 1/2 turned top set on a dry board

You just called a x/r, he knows you dont have air, and yet he chooses to barrel turn anyway. If he has a set or 2 pair you're felting him on the river anyway, and if he has a draw he may go for broke trying to bluff you off. He MIGHT call a big raise on the turn but he's never giving you any more action if he misses, and he also might just fold the turn as well since you look clearly pot committed. I say call the flop raise, call the turn, then jam any river. You get paid off by all of his big hands on the river, and give him one last bullet to fire on his own first.
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Old 10-19-2017, 01:51 AM   #4
aojiru_sss
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Re: 1/2 turned top set on a dry board

Quote:
Originally Posted by javi View Post
You just called a x/r, he knows you dont have air, and yet he chooses to barrel turn anyway. If he has a set or 2 pair you're felting him on the river anyway, and if he has a draw he may go for broke trying to bluff you off. He MIGHT call a big raise on the turn but he's never giving you any more action if he misses, and he also might just fold the turn as well since you look clearly pot committed. I say call the flop raise, call the turn, then jam any river. You get paid off by all of his big hands on the river, and give him one last bullet to fire on his own first.
My thoughts were that because I've got no history with this guy literally first pot I've played and we're playing 1/2, he wouldn't just 3 barrel bluff me. lots of 1/2 players just don't have that in their playbooks. This seems like a better play against better players who will often go for value on a brick river there too but it's tough to pick one out of the crowd both for him and me when we have zero hand history.

I went for $200, and he tank-folded, but looking back I think that was too much and I should've gone for something like $150. I know with how deep we were a raise is usually gonna be good though because he shouldn't be folding 2 pair or an overpair most of the time anyways, if he checks and I jam the river it's gonna be a big overbet jam which doesnt seem good. However, I think what happened is he might have got away with a hand like JJ or QQ or maybe I priced him out of his flush draw. Can't imagine him folding 2 pair or better ever
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Old 10-19-2017, 01:51 AM   #5
flopturntree
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Re: 1/2 turned top set on a dry board

Raise or call both have merits obviously never fold. Depends a lot on game flow, leaning towards raise and bombing majority of rivers. V range heavily weighted towards sets or 2p, should never really have hearts here
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Old 10-19-2017, 02:48 AM   #6
Eholeing
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Re: 1/2 turned top set on a dry board

would call against a stronger opponent, raise against a weaker.
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Old 10-19-2017, 04:20 AM   #7
GenghisKhan
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Re: 1/2 turned top set on a dry board

Quote:
Originally Posted by aojiru_sss View Post
V1: $500 stack,
Hero holds T T in CO
1 EP limper, Hero raises to $10, folds to V1 who calls from SB, the limper also calls
Flop ($32) 2 4 7
Checks to Hero, Hero c-bet $15. V1 checkraises to $45. Limper folds, Hero calls
Turn ($122) T
V1 continues for $60.

.........We want to raise here and jam river, but the question is how much? After the $60 bet V1's got just short of $400 more behind that, we wish he'd bet more than $60 but still feels pretty strong.
Sorry but the flop board is not dry but DYNAMIC. What that means is this: If the flop top card is 9 or less the next two cards (turn or river) potentially can change the leader if you got a hand on the flop. The turn or river cards could very easily be over-cards and knock your overpair down. That's the theory. (and, by the way, also the flop is not "dry" because flush-draws and straight draw are right there in the middle of the table OTF for you to see them all). The "dry" description is misleading and you could make lots of mistakes estimating boards that way.

The thing is you miss an opportunity to move more stacks in the pot OTF after he check-raise you. That was the key point to put some more of the stack in the pot so that you could split the remaining stack in two reasonable chunks and be able to be all-in by the river.

In your situation with $400 left effective is gonna be hard to play for stacks with only two streets of value left. Too much stack to play for all comfortable without scarring villain out of the hand. Maybe if you min-raise to $120 and he calls the pot becomes $362 and you have $280 left. If he checks the river, you can try to shove $280 into $362 but he may fold because that last bet is almost a pot size. He may understand what that means. And if he's drawing to the flush and missed he will not call. The shove should have be done OTT on DYNAMIC boards with more cards to come and villain's drawing.

It looks to me that you play a game of "fit-or-fold" What I mean by this is that you want to flop and make some hand first before betting with a plan. You got a value hand preflop and you know villain just called your 2! pre. That alone should tell you he's got a weak hand. The AA, KK, QQ, JJ are all out of the picture. He's not got them. Maybe he's got two suited over-cards cards or some flush-draw + pair. I don't know for sure but it's possible he's got TP and afraid of the flush and trying to protect something. As I said before, very hard now to play for the remaining $400 stacks.

Last edited by GenghisKhan; 10-19-2017 at 04:31 AM.
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Old 10-19-2017, 05:28 AM   #8
djevans
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Re: 1/2 turned top set on a dry board

He can't be that strong if he only bet $60 into a draw heavy board. His most likely holding is a draw.

Raising seems like the best play.

If he bet more like - $100 - $110 i'd just call.
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Old 10-19-2017, 06:04 AM   #9
CHICKSDIGLONGBALL
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Re: 1/2 turned top set on a dry board

Quote:
Originally Posted by aojiru_sss View Post

I went for $200, and he tank-folded, but looking back I think that was too much and I should've gone for something like $150.
Throw math out the window or preset formulas. A lot of guys will go 180 here because they were taught to 3x. I am raising here, and it is probably less then 200 with these stacks. If you go 150 you have a smooth river shove depending on river card...
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Old 10-19-2017, 06:37 AM   #10
medic2038
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Re: 1/2 turned top set on a dry board

Quote:
Originally Posted by aojiru_sss View Post
I went for $200, and he tank-folded, but looking back I think that was too much and I should've gone for something like $150. I know with how deep we were a raise is usually gonna be good though because he shouldn't be folding 2 pair or an overpair most of the time anyways, if he checks and I jam the river it's gonna be a big overbet jam which doesnt seem good. However, I think what happened is he might have got away with a hand like JJ or QQ or maybe I priced him out of his flush draw. Can't imagine him folding 2 pair or better ever
So if villain has 400 behind after his turn bet (which puts 180 in the pot) I think you're right about raising smaller and still being able to get stacks in on the river.

I think you can make an argument for even going to about 125 here. Essentially the min raise I think is more likely to get called, and that would leave him with 335 behind, with a pot of about 370. Flatting, like you said, would make any river shove an overbet and might be difficult to get called by worse.
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Old 10-19-2017, 06:37 AM   #11
venice10
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Re: 1/2 turned top set on a dry board

My guess is that he had a FD and realized that you had a real hand when you raised him on the turn. He thought about calling, but figured out that if he hit his FD, you were never going to pay him off. He never had you on a set, most likely he thought you had JJ+.
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Old 10-19-2017, 02:12 PM   #12
SemiCharmed
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Re: 1/2 turned top set on a dry board

I'm raising somewhat large on the turn for value. In my experience its super tough for them to lay down flush draws. Hes probably c/f the river if his draw whiffs.
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