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1-2 Turn Ship? 1-2 Turn Ship?

01-06-2014 , 11:30 PM
Just started new table been sitting there for about 1 orbit haven't really played with any of the guys at table except TJ Cloutier is in SB in this hand I have played with him a couple times.

I'm in CO with 109 (eff. Stack 150) folds to me I raise it to 12
SB: TJ flats. (Eff. Stack 350)
BB: Flats as well. Younger guy think he's a lawyer but looks like he knows what he's doing he'll be the villain in this hand. (Eff. Stack 300)
Pot:35
Flop: J36
TJ: checks
BB:leads for 15
I call. Seems like only reasonable play could be wrong though.
TJ folds.
Pot:65
Turn:9
BB: continues for 60.
This is where it gets confusing for me because I just knew I was behind and only had about $123 left. So should I call,jam, or just throw it away?
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01-07-2014 , 12:03 AM
I am hesitant to post a reply because the casual mention of playing LLSNL with a well known player makes me doubt this hand was ever played, but I would raise the flop.
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01-07-2014 , 12:04 AM
Can't call. Personally I would shove expect to see AJ from V. You have very little fold equity do expect a call almost everytime.
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01-07-2014 , 12:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by socialrunner
I am hesitant to post a reply because the casual mention of playing LLSNL with a well known player makes me doubt this hand was ever played, but I would raise the flop.
Thought the exact same thing.
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01-07-2014 , 12:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by socialrunner
I am hesitant to post a reply because the casual mention of playing LLSNL with a well known player makes me doubt this hand was ever played, but I would raise the flop.
Why would I just name drop TJ Cloutier and be lying? He plays at my cardroom in Dallas.
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01-07-2014 , 12:20 AM
As played, fold. Do not jam - I don't think you are ahead, and I don't think you have any fold equity given that you only called the donk bet on the flop. After all, what did the 9 of spades do to change the texture of this flop? Nothing. If villain thought he was good enough with top pair/two pair/set/big draw (or whatever) to follow up a weak donk on the flop with a pot sized bet on the turn, then the 9 of spades has not changed his mind about whether he is ahead or not.

Pealing the $15 donk bet instead of raising it, as you did in the OP, means that you wanted to see flush on the turn in the hopes that villain might have a big enough hand, like a set or two pair, or even something like AcJx for you to cash in on if you hit the turn. That is a good plan. But you cannot get too attached to chasing the flush once you miss the cheap turn, and the price goes way up to see the river. Yes the pair helps your equity, but not enough to stack off knowing you are likely behind. Even if the math might show some small +EV to push against a wide range for villain (which would be unnecessarily optimistic thinking, IMO), I would rather just stick with my original plan and let it go on the turn, as played.

If you had started with a full stack, then I would have liked raising on the flop to $45 or $50 planning to fold to a push preflop, or bet the turn for value if I hit a flush, but check behind on the turn for a free card if I get called on the flop then miss entirely on the turn. With your starting stack in this hand, however, I like calling the relatively cheap donk bet once to see how it goes, but planning to fold when you miss and get a heavy bet on the turn, as happened.

Last edited by Albert Moulton; 01-07-2014 at 12:25 AM.
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01-07-2014 , 12:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHammer
Why would I just name drop TJ Cloutier and be lying? He plays at my cardroom in Dallas.
You could understand how it could seem far fetched though, right? Do bigger games run?
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01-07-2014 , 12:39 AM
Okay thanks Albert that helps a lot cause I was thinking the same thing just needed some more proof and reasoning to it and you did that. I ended up folding but I do agree if I have 300 or so then raising flop would be better. So if you have a flush draw on the flop and somebody donks is it almost always better to raise flop and take back initiative? And what if they do ship it in your face do you call it off or just b/f?

And social runner I completely agree how someone could see that it's far fetched I just threw it in there just to let you know that I'm not playing 1-2 with people who have never played before or whatever. But yeah they do on the weekends and later in the night this was at about 12 today. They a run 2-5 that plays like a 5-10 and the 1-2 during the day plays like a 2-5 that's what I usually play so it's good for me.
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01-07-2014 , 12:45 AM
In breaking news, illegal Dallas card room raided by Texas Rangers. Film at 11.
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01-07-2014 , 12:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHammer
So if you have a flush draw on the flop and somebody donks is it almost always better to raise flop and take back initiative? And what if they do ship it in your face do you call it off or just b/f?.
Albert pretty much nailed it so I'll just address this part. My overall strategy involves raising these type of weak leads very often. I just don't give them much credit. I wouldn't say you should always raise a donk bet when you have a flush draw but it is good to mix some draws in if you plan on raising these type of bets often. If they ship it in your face just do the math, but in general I would make my flop raise large enough so that I would have odds to call it off with the flush draw so that I could realize my equity (with your current stack size that is, with a larger stack I don't mind raise/folding sometimes).
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01-07-2014 , 02:36 AM
The first thing to do would be to learn what effective stacks are instead of just tossing around the term... then next time just fold turn b/c u r not getting the proper odds and have no FE
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01-07-2014 , 08:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHammer
...So should I call,jam, or just throw it away?
Just throw it away.
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