1/2 the other night about $250 deep. I cover all villains in the hand, but stack sizes are all similar. About 15 minutes into the session I pick up TT in MP and make it $12 to go after one limper in front. CO, button and BB call. Limper folds.

4 to the flop with $50 in there. Board comes 9c6c4h. BB donks out for $35. Never played with him before (MAWG).

What are you guys doing here with the overpair? Odd spot early in the session without much information to go on.

Call.

Obviously not folding, and raise/folding or raise/getting it in is spewy.

It's good to block 2 outs for the 87 OESD, which is possible. 75 isn't impossible. Flush draws with AcXc or other flush draws w/ or w/out broadways are very possible. Let's see what happens on the turn. Of course, against an unknown from BB, you have to assume two pair (96, 64) and sets (44, 66, 99) are possible, as well as a bunch of top pair 9x. That's probably the most common hand in his range, but it's not necessarily a huge % of his range, if you understand what I mean (~mode vs mean). Higher overpairs like JJ-QQ are also not impossible. Generally, on a population-read basis, I think a donk bet of 35 into 50 tends to be a made hand more often than a draw, but his range certainly contains both.

You're in position, which is a huge advantage. Raising undermines that advantage and just doesn't accomplish much. Raising and folding to a 3-bet is pretty terrible for a lot of reasons, and raise/getting in 125BB on the flop cannot be good. If you raise and he just folds, that's pretty meh... what did he fold? Low equity air? Also, you generally want to play this hand with a strategy to keep the pot smaller, and calling accomplishes that.

Donk sizing matters. If he had bet 10 or 15 into 50, I'd put in a raise to around 40-45. With 35 into 50, it's a call.

fold

Call flop. Probably fold if villain bets reasonably hard again on the turn. Without any read on villain you don't know what is the best line here, it could be anywhere from calling down to folding now. Absent any information your hand is too good to just give up but it isn't worth going broke with.

honest questions willy: are good players doing this with a made hand? or is it predominantly the 1/2 drooler? i usually start categorizing players at my table like this first.

i guess im asking what the difference in range is between these two broad player types is in this spot.

good post OP find myself in similar spots often as the PFR

Good players can def donk like this with a made hand or with a semi-bluff. (Or I'm just a 1/2 drooler)

Call and reevaluate turn.

Villan at 1/2 could be on FD or hit 9.

Not a terrible flop for a raised pot

Thanks Tito. I ended up folding in this spot. Not that I'm super worried about the 2 players behind, but it doesn't help.

I feel like I'm not quite good enough to flat here and peel a turn. Maybe as I get better with standard 1/2 llsnl lines I will feel more comfortable getting to see turns and rivers in this spot.

In this spot I talked myself into believing that given the board was a little wet, the donk lead was a scared set that didn't want to see a scary turn card. But like you guys have said. There are lots of other hands in his range as well.

For now based on my skill level a fold seemed like the right decision for me.

A smaller donk, say $15 or $20 in this spot from a drooler in my experience means he hit 2d pair or may top pair, weak kicker. In this spot with the relatively wet board and bigger donk, has the feel of top pair decent to good kicker and trying to chase out draws. I'd be inclined to min raise to isolate and fold to a shove. Problem with calling is that players behind you will also call with all sorts of draws. This is going to be a tricky hand, and I want position for the remainder. Raise to $70 leaves you enough behind to fold to a turn shove if you feel you are beat.

almost never a set. villain waits for PFR to spill a few chips into the middle before getting a min-raise in. Serious relative position for V.

Villain is on a draw or has 9X.

That's hard to answer generally. There are so many different variables to consider.

Generally, I would usually want to check with strong hands for many reasons (give someone a chance to c-bet light; c/c and lead turns to give someone a chance to improve to a pair, draw, or weak draw on the turn... or perhaps c/r if there's a c-bet followed by multiple calls, suggesting a ton of interest in the pot and villain ranges that likely include decent draws and made hands that give us value).

I could also see donking here with a hand like the 87 OESD with a backdoor flush draw. We get to barrel tons of turn cards (5 and T for value, J, Q, K, and A as a bluff, and probably most cards that give us the flush draw).

With a one pair hand, even top pair, I would mostly c/c and c/decide turn.

And I think it's fine to have an unbalanced range here unless you start to develop extensive history with a very competent player.

But yeah, those are all just general ideas. Depends on the exact spot.

I think that if you call on a wety flop like that you will get squeezed very often by CO or button if they have a draw, especially if they are flushing with Ax or Kx. Their range includes a lot of suited connectors and Axs, potentially also baby pairs which they are likely to play aggressively. I doubt BB would donk his draws against 3 players especially as he has almost no chance of stealing the pot, so I think he has very often a made hand he is trying to protect. I would not be surprised that he is trying to protect a set as you thought, so I would fold and wait to have a better read before playing a big pot against him.

sounds like we're in very similar position; just recently made the transition to playing live regularly...slightly under-rolled I find myself making a lot of similar folds to wait for spots where I am more comfortable no matter how much being a nit pains me, inexperienced and a roll on the short side taking the low variance play has merit imo. That being said I like the fold oop, players behind squeezing with draws is highly likely.

Folding is too tight here. Are you folding AA too? The relative strength between AA and TT is similar. AA just has a bit more equity against the portion of drawing ranges which have overs. It's nice that TT blocks 87's outs as Willy mentioned as draws are common donking hands. I'd rather have TT than JJ-QQ, probably. If you fold all overpairs and worse made hands you'll be folding something like 90% of your range. Fish will donk 9x here literally to see where they stand.

Most V's will overcall with draws here, and they usually have nothing anyway. BU and CO are only very rarely going to bluff squeeze. Probably less than 10% of the time together.

I dont disagree that folding is too tight, its just a spot i'm not comfortable with early in a session. Funny you bring up AA because the next night (yesterday) i played again and got in an almost identical spot only i had AA this time. Difference was i had reads after an 1.5 hours and the board was super dry (Q85r). Other than that, it was a pot opened by me UTG for $10 with AA called in 3 spots including the BB. BB donked, this time for $20. Dry board and reads led me down a different path in this hand.

Back to the TT situation from the night before tho - you're right, if i'm folding TT am i folding AA. There really is almost no difference in how these two hands play in this spot.

Call. Lots of 9x and draws donk the flop. Generally, your typical low stakes player would try to c/r with a set. You're ahead of most of villain's donking range. And you block 2 straight outs. You can fold if the action gets crazy. I'd plan to get to a showdown as quickly and cheaply as possible.

The more i think about it, the more i agree. I dont have that much experience at Live 1/2 (200+ hours), but sets dont get played this way. If i flat there are so many turn cards than slow the donk bettor down and we likely get to a cheap showdown.

For me this is definitely a call and very close attention paid to:

- What the guys after you do (any raise from CO would bother me with thinking hes confident in his set being better than not against OESFD or worse and would probably induce my fold)
- The scare value of the turn
- Turn bet sizing from BB

Assuming the call folds out the others and isolates you and the better, I would have a few pre-determined inclinations for turn play.

-Turn is a blank; PSB a check from villain, call any smaller bet from villian
-Turn is a OESFD scare card; PSB a check; fold to any good size bet, call a bet that makes me raise eyebrows
- Turn is an overcard; check back, fold to any bet size

70/f/shove turn seems interesting as well

By calling we are basically gambling there is no action behind. Against 3 or 2 villains on the turn, we are either beat or facing a scary card and will therefore be likely to fold 100% of the time to a bet.
I dont really see any value in calling. If we want to continue on the flop, I think that raising BB bet is the best play, hoping he has 9x and the two other guys behind have nothing.
It would be interesting to know if you had the Tc.

This. I consider myself on the tighter side of this forum's posters and can't believe anyone is advising a fold here. Very few reasonable 2-pair holdings given the pre-flop action so really the only hands we are very worried about are sets and maybe JJ or QQ (AA or KK would have raised pre-flop). Those combos are a small portion of what V is betting when you consider 9x and draws. We also have position on V. Yes there are 2 others left to act but we can call and evaluate further action as it happens.

I also think there is merit here to a min-raise to 70 as that will help clarify V's (and other's in hand) range and charge him for draws and 9x.

aa and tt are not the same thing here

How do they differ other than what's already been discussed?

AA is much further ahead of many of the draws. TT will lose a lot of pots to draws that miss but spike an over card.

Raise to $80.