One of the concepts I've seen on this forum is getting to a cheap showdown when your hand has showdown value. This hand came up last night and I went against my instinct of 3-betting V. I was 80-90% sure I was ahead and thought by 3! I would take the pot, and if flatted or 4! I could get away without risking more chips.

Effective stacks of $300. Villain hasn't done much. Sitting to my left and talks a lot. Kind of annoying. Seems to have an inflated sense of his skill.

Hero in BB with A J
UTG (V) straddles for $4
UTG+1 (V2) calls $4
MP calls $4
SB folds
Hero raises to $15 (maybe a little bit too small here)
UTG calls $15
UTG+1 calls $15
MP folds

Pot: ~$45

Flop: 6 J 2

Hero bets $20
V1 raises to $45
V2 folds

* Now in my mind I am thinking. That is such a pussy raise. He is probably just making a move on me here. I was oh so close to 3! him to $125 but thought back to all the forum posts I saw on "getting to cheap showdown" that I thought better of it and just flatted *

Pot: ~$135

Turn: Q

Hero checks
V checks

Pot: ~$135

River: 9

Hero checks
V bets $50
Hero calls $50

Will post results later. But in situations like this, should I be going for a cheap showdown or go for the 3! on the flop? As mentioned, I am 90% sure I am ahead at that point. His bet there made no sense and am equally certain a 3! to $125 would have taken it down but I talked myself out of it by just wanting to get to showdown. Very frustrating hand for me.

Raise pre is too small.

Bet on flop is LOL small.

He was thinking the same thing at your cbet.

3betting flop seems spewy, what do you think he'll call with that you beat?

Agree with calling his dumb raise.

Check on turn is good. His check behind makes me take sets out of his range. IME players don't raise sets on flop to check them on turn. They check turn if a) the card improved them(QJ), or b)the card scared them (Jx).

Would call river at those odds. Often he has KJ. Sometimes he has QJ.

raise pre is a little small prob like 18-20
flop bet is fine. i would bet 25 (but don't see a reason for more) on such a dry board.

so i'll say that you are probably taking the "get to cheap showdown" type advice a little out of context. the main point of similar advice is really about playing your hand best against villains range. for example, against a lot of villains at 1/2 if you 3b and get it in on this flop villain is just gonna fold pretty much everything worse than your hand, and is gonna continue with a lot of sets and maybe some AJ as well. whereas, if you flat, you keep his bluffs and whatever worse hands he decided to raise for value or whatever other reason 1/2 players raise for.

if you have some read that villain likes raising top pair and can't fold it. then sure, raising this flop with the intention of getting it in is fine. doesn't really seem like thats the case.

i would probably bet the river myself for like 50-60.

you are just fundamentally misunderstanding the reason for betting and raising. it is never to "win the pot now", its a matter of value betting or bluffing vs. villains range.

He doesn't require a lot of skill to know you had TP on the flop after you checked on the turn. TBH, I don't understand why newer players think it is a great idea to raise on the flop with TP on dry boards, but even so-called good players do it. I think you played it fine to the river.

For $50, I'd call the river. Not because I think it is immediately +EV, but I want to see exactly what his level of play is. I ordinarily show first no matter what, but this is an exception to the rule. Refuse to show until he shows his hand. I'll own him the rest of the night.

you don't think calling 50 on the river is +ev?
villain can have so few hands better than heros, and he's getting more than 3.5:1

So I should never be raising (3!) this flop because it folds out worse and gets called by better?

Then I should generally be taking a check turn line and evaluating V actions? If V checks the turn, bet river on non-scare cards? Is that optimal in theory?

Does checking river give V chance to bluff value town himself? Won't me betting river give V option to fold worse, call value and raise superior hands?

3bet flop for value, not because you want to win now vs. a cheap showdown. His range for just defending the straddle rather than 3betting your (presumably) late position open over a limper is weaker broadways, some pocket pairs. His raise just screams marginal and I'm looking to get early value from a weaker J here almost all the time.

Villain showed up with

Should I normally be looking to take a b/f line on the river here or does c/c extract more value? I guess you have to determine whether V is a calling station or if he would try to bluff the pot if checked to on the river?

I like your line your small bet induced action perfectly and allowed your hand to collect max value while getting to showdown.

Before you gave the results, I was gonna say he probably showed up with KJ of clubs or something like that. A flat to his raise on flop here shows that you have a J or better when you were the original raiser...on such a dry board, he's not raising with a set most likely or 2 pair. Think the call actually would've slowed down his action on the turn with any Jx when he has position (if you had position on him, then the scenario changes).

I say go for the re-raise to $100 on flop...bomb the turn all-in. Not going for pot control with given stack sizes and how hand played out. Oh yeah, raise bigger pre...bet bigger on flop.

As played, calling $50 is correct on river (not being results oriented)...if he had QJ, he would've fired the turn. Sucks he hit the back door flush draw on you...If he has J9 it plays out the same also though.

He didn't get max value...he got drawn out on b/c he allowed it get to showdown.

Lol, when I saw this hand I thought "Villain flopped a weak draw and wants to get there cheap". Ding-Ding-Ding!

Op, I think you intuited the situation perfectly on the flop: you felt that despite the wierd min-raise, top/top was probably still the best hand. Your thought process and plan is flawed, however. It shouldn't be "I want to get to showdown cheap with a decent made hand", it should be "I want to extract max value with the best hand". Flatting is fine, as it keeps the draws in, but is there love for a thinner 3!? Say to $75-80? (I'd just hate to get 4!-bluffed off a decent value hand).

The turn brings an over, but across his range Qx makes but a small portion. There's a decent chance that if we were good on the flop, we're still good. Why should our plan change? Additionally, there's now a flush draw and straight possibilities to worry about. So we should value bet. Villain's flop min-raise sows just enough confusion and doubt, however, we cautiously check to see what he'd do. GG him.

On the river, the board's now super wet, with 3 clubs, cards that hit random Broadway hands hard...NOW is when the plan should change to "Let's see a cheap showdown with a decent made hand".

You being OOP with that many limpers, raise to $30 pre or just limp in. On flop I'd bet $30. You want to build a pot with what's almost always the best hand. Small bets also induce bluffs. When he raises small on flop, flat flop, check turn and lead $50 on river. Doesn't make sense for him to bluff river after checking turn and his hand looks like KJ, JT, J9, J8

Reraise flop is only good IF he's often calling a reraise with a lot of worse jacks. Otherwise it's spew. Call flop lead turn and fold to raise is good line too if turn were a card lower than a jack

Beyond wisely check/calling instead of leading river, Op followed the path you prescribe, and it worked so well for him, he started a 2+2 thread

Your're right about the weak flop lead, though.

Grunch

Little bigger pre and flop but those are easily fixable.

Villain almost min raises flop, what you have here is either
- set (that will continue with a raise in turn)
-draw that will give up/call turn and give up/raise river if he hits.

So you essentially have a call flop, lead 1/2-2/3 PSB b/f on turn, (villain mostly is not running into a Q on this board after flop action) so either V will call with lower jacks (value) raise with sets we can easily fold too, and continue to call with a draw getting the incorrect price.

And then 1/2 PSB B/f on river to maximize value with jacks, and river raises at these levels with passive players are easily foldable.

Sure the line may look exploitable to 2+2ers who have an understanding but when playing against passive fish they WILL NOT exploit you in spots like these.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using 2+2 Forums

Appreciate the advice. I read the thread you made in theory too. I think it's a worthy discussion - shame they closed it down on you. Will definitely think about a slightly-more-than-min-raise in that spot if it comes up again as I want to keep him in and I think $120+ would cause V to fold.

I probably shouldn't have been so scared on the turn but the min-raise has a way of doing that to you. If I raised to $90, I could have blasted the turn for ~$160 and really taken V to task. If he makes that call it's incredibly -EV over the long-run. I didn't think a hand like TPTK would be something to play for stacks over but if you manipulate the pot to your liking it seems like anything is possible.

Thanks Mack. That seems like a pretty safe but solid line to take against most passive 1/2 players. When I have a little more free time I am going to go back over all the 20 or so hands I started and put some of the best concepts from the replies onto flash cards so this stuff starts to become muscle memory.

But I really like this line. Looks like it can extract max value vs. a typical 1/2 player that isn't really sure why he is doing what he is doing. And OOP none the less!