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1/2 Tough River Spot 1/2 Tough River Spot

11-24-2014 , 04:41 AM
1/2 no limit table

Hero: Has around $450, playing fairly snug, been making some loose preflop calls due to the action at the table.

Villain: Has been raising literally every single hand, but just small raises to $8 preflop and usually gets the whole table or about 50% to call. He will raise preflop from any position, and I hear him saying to the kid next to me that he'll raise any suited or big cards, also likes to bet big too.

There is no hand history between us, but noticeable hands that have happened was him betting $50 on a low 3/5/2/3 on the turn, then the river was a 4, and a drunk guy shipped for about $200 (into a pot of 125 at the most) and he called with 37 and getting upset when the other guy had the A saying how can he call that

Another hand was on a 9/j/10 board I bet 17, someone called, he made it $50, I folded, then the other person made it $150 and he tanked and went on about how its either allin or fold and folded a J face up.

Anyways, on to the hand.

Villain - $400 (BB_
Hero - Covers (BTN)
V1 (SB)
V2 (UTG - Drunk guy from 3/7 hand)

Table limps, hero limps OTB with j9 os, sb limps, Villain makes it 7$ from the BB
A few people call, and were 5 way to the flop.
Flop $35 - K Q 4

Checks around.

Turn $35 - K Q 4| 10
Bingo!
V1 bets $20, Villain makes it $40, V2 calls, Hero... makes it $125...(Like the sizing? Or should I bet raising more, like $165ish?) Villain tanks and asks if he wants to play, then finally calls.

River $345 - K Q 4 10 | Q
Villain tanks for a minute, then hems and haws about how "this always happens to him" and "its just his luck" and blah blah, then says how its time to go and ships it for ~$250

Hero pukes all over the table and...
1/2 Tough River Spot Quote
11-24-2014 , 05:02 AM
I would raise that hand from the button in that spot.

As played you are beat by KQ, Q10 and AJ. Due to the spades I think he would bet KQ, making Q10 and AJ more likely. The only hand he makes that play with that you beat is Qx or maybe missed spades.

I am not an expert player by any means but I do play a lot of live 1/2 and 99% of the time someone gives a speech like that, they have it. You just have to hope "it" is Qx.

This is a tough one but it I think I would find a fold here.
1/2 Tough River Spot Quote
11-24-2014 , 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonchillmatic
I would raise that hand from the button in that spot.

As played you are beat by KQ, Q10 and AJ. Due to the spades I think he would bet KQ, making Q10 and AJ more likely. The only hand he makes that play with that you beat is Qx or maybe missed spades.

I am not an expert player by any means but I do play a lot of live 1/2 and 99% of the time someone gives a speech like that, they have it. You just have to hope "it" is Qx.

This is a tough one but it I think I would find a fold here.
This was actually a hand for a friend, but you raise from the button with j9 off after like 3 limpers? Idk...

e:
Villain hasn't shown down any bluffs, nor has he been caught bluffing the past 5 hours
1/2 Tough River Spot Quote
11-24-2014 , 12:30 PM
If V isn't hollywooding, its very possible he has same hand or AJ. I think I find a fold here because the time's he's just bluffing a busted flush is pretty remote to the times we are beat or chop.
1/2 Tough River Spot Quote
11-24-2014 , 12:38 PM
I think given the circumstances, I'd advocate a shove right on the turn. If he has AJ, so be it. With the river, it gets a whole lot easier to advocate folding if you can put V on 2p combos of KQ / Q10. The speech is either an outright tell or a reversal. You make it sound certain he isn't doing this with a missed draw bluff.
1/2 Tough River Spot Quote
11-24-2014 , 01:04 PM
Interesting spot ... If V has AJ why is he tanking the Turn? He is not beat by anything at that point in the hand. V doesnt have AJ

River he is agonizing about getting sucked out on or just has it and is tell a story for you.

I agree that most River stories are 'have it' stories. What Qx does he tank with? Only QJ?? That makes sense ... and he still improved, just not in the way he wanted to.

KQ ... Not so sure that V is 'smart' enough to tell a real story on Turn and then a false story on River.

AJ ... I have ruled this out by the tank/story on the Turn. But yes, it couldve been a story there and he thinks you hit a boat on him.

J9 ... unlikely, but again the Turn puzzles me ... is he really that worried about someone hitting a flush on him?

QT ... very unlikely IMO, but does make some sense that he 'only' min-raised the Turn to 'see where he was at' ... and made a somewhat poor call/speech.

I am going off of the Turn speech here, calling this down and looking for QJ. That is the holding that makes the most sense of both speeches to me. If he hadn't made a speech on the Turn, then I might be more inclined to fold. KQ/QT dont 'play' ... They are already a made hand, QJ need to 'play' and improve. Call it off ... GL
1/2 Tough River Spot Quote
11-24-2014 , 01:09 PM
Dont really want to shove this Turn. That would be a pretty steep bet for someone to call here. A larger Turn raise ... maybe, as he 'only' needed 85 into 265 to continue and he probably was doing some math with his OESD while 'knowing' 2 of his outs are not good to the flush.

Still calling River ... slightly larger Turn though since we are still multiway and I am willing to make a decision for my stack if I get shoved on by either. GL
1/2 Tough River Spot Quote
11-24-2014 , 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by answer20
Interesting spot ... If V has AJ why is he tanking the Turn? He is not beat by anything at that point in the hand. V doesnt have AJ

River he is agonizing about getting sucked out on or just has it and is tell a story for you.

I agree that most River stories are 'have it' stories. What Qx does he tank with? Only QJ?? That makes sense ... and he still improved, just not in the way he wanted to.

KQ ... Not so sure that V is 'smart' enough to tell a real story on Turn and then a false story on River.

AJ ... I have ruled this out by the tank/story on the Turn. But yes, it couldve been a story there and he thinks you hit a boat on him.

J9 ... unlikely, but again the Turn puzzles me ... is he really that worried about someone hitting a flush on him?

QT ... very unlikely IMO, but does make some sense that he 'only' min-raised the Turn to 'see where he was at' ... and made a somewhat poor call/speech.

I am going off of the Turn speech here, calling this down and looking for QJ. That is the holding that makes the most sense of both speeches to me. If he hadn't made a speech on the Turn, then I might be more inclined to fold. KQ/QT dont 'play' ... They are already a made hand, QJ need to 'play' and improve. Call it off ... GL
I don't really see how you can give him credit for QJ here.
Do you really think someone whos gonna raise that turn with QJ wont just bet that flop? I feel like without a doubt hes going to bet the flop with a K, or even 2pair.

Thinking through the hand now, I'm leaning towards Q10 more than anything.
I think AJ he just ships the turn and gets it over with, and based on my info about him, I think hes betting KQ on the flop.
Going back to QJ, I think someone who is going to raise the turn with QJ, is going to bet the flop.

Looking for a few most opinions before i post results please.
1/2 Tough River Spot Quote
11-24-2014 , 03:36 PM
LAGtard ships the river that pairs the Q? I fist-pump call. Sure, we lose to boats & AJ but we snap off all busted flush draws and villain may believe his Q is good.

Bet sizing on the turn is fine, maybe a smidge larger as you suggested, but we're getting 2-1 on a call.
1/2 Tough River Spot Quote
11-24-2014 , 03:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCabForTootie
LAGtard ships the river that pairs the Q? I fist-pump call. Sure, we lose to boats & AJ but we snap off all busted flush draws and villain may believe his Q is good.

Bet sizing on the turn is fine, maybe a smidge larger as you suggested, but we're getting 2-1 on a call.
I wouldn't call him a LAGtard at all. Hes real basic ABC poker. He was making comments when he first sat down to the kid next to him like, "That's how the book says to play it, right?"

Forgot to add one hand history between us, I raised to $10 with 10's, he called, and the board was 3/4/6, he checked, i c-bet and he tanked, then folded k/4 suited face up saying, "I know i got you beat you got high cards like kq/ak that didn't hit you.
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11-24-2014 , 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pug Walker
Villain: Has been raising literally every single hand,

Hero pukes all over the table and...
If this isn't the definition of LAGtard, I don't know what is.
1/2 Tough River Spot Quote
11-24-2014 , 05:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pug Walker
This was actually a hand for a friend, but you raise from the button with j9 off after like 3 limpers? Idk...

e:
Villain hasn't shown down any bluffs, nor has he been caught bluffing the past 5 hours
If 2 or 3 hell maybe even 4 limp to me on the button I am going to go ahead and raise'er right on up.
1/2 Tough River Spot Quote
11-24-2014 , 07:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pug Walker
I don't really see how you can give him credit for QJ here.
Do you really think someone whos gonna raise that turn with QJ wont just bet that flop? I feel like without a doubt hes going to bet the flop with a K, or even 2pair.

Thinking through the hand now, I'm leaning towards Q10 more than anything.
I think AJ he just ships the turn and gets it over with, and based on my info about him, I think hes betting KQ on the flop.
Going back to QJ, I think someone who is going to raise the turn with QJ, is going to bet the flop.

Looking for a few most opinions before i post results please.

Nice reasoning. Fold riv and tell him he belongs on the big screen.
If not for turn speach we are calling a bet otr from 2pair and j9
Since he's a good lag he might have Aj w out the speach plus riv bet
so all in all fold imo
1/2 Tough River Spot Quote
11-24-2014 , 11:20 PM
Sorry, but for all you people considering him a "Good LAG" player and referring to him as a LAG, I strongly disagree. I personally view him as a fish. He raises any suited cards, and bets if he hits regardless of his kicker, but at the same time hes not a complete moron.
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11-25-2014 , 04:18 AM
The villain just said he had AJ and u might have hit a boat. So his range is AJ or better. I don't know why u r so excited when u hit the bottom end of strt on turn. If u could have 9Jo on this spot others could have AJ too. If u had AJ on this spot, it's ok to puke. 9J nah. Fold and move on to next hand. Don't even feel bad abt it. U r way behind.
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11-25-2014 , 08:08 AM
I'm leaning heavily towards accepting this as a cooler if he has you beat, against someone whom you "view as a fish", who raises "literally every single hand" and who "likes to bet big".

You need about 30 percent if I'm not mistaken. Surely he will have a busted draw or Qx more than enough times to justify a call.
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