Quote:
Originally Posted by sewktbk
I think shoving might get rid of a couple of hands that we beat and that we want to keep in.
The bolding and underlining above is mine.
It sounds like the hands you're talking about are:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sewktbk
Would you stack off with 33, 44, 99 or TT here OTF? I know I wouldnt. Probably not even with JJ or QQ.
... and that's exactly the wrong way to look at it.
You need to think about how this hand plays out oop.
How do you expect to extract one more dollar from 33 and 44 later?
Hint: You won't.
With 33, 44, if you check turn, he usually checks back. You give him 4-8 straight outs twice to beat you. 2 set "outs" for each hand are bad for him since they give him strong second-best hands... but both of those put 4-straights on the board and probably freeze all action.
And if he checks turn back, sees a river, and does not improve, is he ever paying you one more dollar with 33, 44? No. There's almost no benefit to keeping those in. By the way, they're just 12 combos. You risk losing huge value by focusing your entire strategy on a small % of his range.
Run-out is also huge here. An enormous % of the time (like 75%+?), the turn or river card will put out a straightening, flushing, or pairing card or an overcard to the hands you're focusing on (33,44,99-QQ).
We talked about 33, 44. What is your plan to extract from 99-QQ after the flop?
Almost the *entire deck* is a scare card / action killer for, say, 99... think 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, spades, T, J, Q, K, A. You're often going to the check turn, allowing him to check behind with 99-QQ and allowing him to realize all his equity, which can be substantial. When he checks back turn with 99 exactly, he gets to see nearly 6 outs twice. With 88, he has closer to 10 outs twice. That's a lot of equity as a near freeroll.
Is there even 1 imaginable run out where villain calls a river value bet with an unimproved 33,44,88,99? Not really. If you bet/call flop, check turn, and reach the river, mostly one of two things will happen. You will a) lose chips with the worst hand, or b) win no more chips with the best hand.
By the way, a third thing can happen, and will happen quite often. That is c) villain can often use position to bluff you effectively on the river. Say villain has a spade draw, turn goes check/check, and river comes a 4-straight. He shoves. Your line puts you in horrible situations like that at a meaningful frequency where you probably have to give villain every drawing out, giving him simply enormous pot + bluff equity.
By the way, stepping back quite a bit, the biggest mistake you're making is that you're considering the run-out in the ACTUAL hand. You have to ignore the fact the turn was the 2
. There are only 3 clear "blanks" in the entire deck for the types of hands you're thinking about
: 2
, 2
, and 2
. You literally binked a 3 outer in terms of "blanks."
You need to think about the 94% of the time the turn is not a total blank for the types of hands you worry will fold the flop.