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Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

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Old 03-07-2020, 04:27 AM   #1
TJ Eckleburg12
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1/2 Thin Value, Wide Ranges, Dry Runout

1/2 raked home game. I have a good number of hours with most of the opponents to have a feel for their ranges, but I'd only been there about half an hour and never played with this villain before. Though I hadn't seen him play much, I feel like I should take a moment to describe the usual game dynamics at this table.

First, the game plays pretty deep. Most people buy in for $500-$1k. I'd say people are generally tight/passive preflop, with walks and chops to the blinds not uncommon. But if button straddles to 10 (also not uncommon), 4 limps, and a raise to 50 is getting 4 calls also. So this is very different from a $300 cap 1/2 game in a casino where the difference between a 4x iso and a 6x iso is significant.

The other adjustment I'd say people make is, generally, people are hesitant to put too much money in with 1 pair. Now, there are crazy preflop action pots, but I'd say it's rare for a 1-pair hand to win bigger than an 80-100bb+ pot.

Villain is a middle-aged Middle Eastern guy, professionally dressed. He's a friend of one of the regulars and visiting from out of state.

Hero is a (sigh) middle-aged white guy, playing probably looser preflop than most at the table so far, but hasn't gone to showdown yet.

Villain has about $550, hero covers

Folds, Villain limps from MP2 for $2. Hero raises to $15 with A T from HJ, all fold, Villain calls.

Maybe too thin to isolate? I kinda feel that overlimping just invites CO or BTN to take the initiative. Whatever, I have two broadways and position.
The fishiest, splashiest player at the table was also in BB, so I kinda wanted him to come along too, but he disappointed.


Pot $30, Flop K 5 4

Villain checks, Hero bets $20, Villain calls

Heads up in position checked to on a dry flop texture, seems like a trivial c-bet. Sized up one redbird from the PF raise. I think people (especially tourney donks) make the mistake of sizing too small when they stab in spots like this... especially with the described game dynamics.

Pot $70, K 5 4 , Turn A

Villain checks, Hero bets $30, Villain calls.

Certainly a better turn for my range than his. So we should be betting, right? At the time, I was more just thinking "ok well now I have top pair, time to bet for value."

Pot $130, K 5 4 A, River 6

Villain checks,

I'm a little unsure of where I'm at here. I have the lead, and think I have the best hand most of the time, but this is definitely the bottom of my range that fires all 3 streets on this runout. If I bet, I want to bet small enough that a King or a worse Ace can call, but not too small that defines my hand as a marginal holding that could be blown off by a bluff raise.

Is just checking back better?


Hero bets $50.

Comments on all streets, sizing, and thought processes appreciated.
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Old 03-07-2020, 09:58 AM   #2
twitcherroo
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Re: 1/2 Thin Value, Wide Ranges, Dry Runout

Against an unknown I'm probably checking river back but I don't mind at all the ~35-40% river bet. Unfortunately it's a b/f as low in your range as ATo sits but probably good. I don't know if it's a 3 streets hand. Other than the slightly optimistic river I like the hand.
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Old 03-07-2020, 10:07 AM   #3
Garick
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Re: 1/2 Thin Value, Wide Ranges, Dry Runout

I like it through the flop.

Turn is iffy. Given population reads for well-dressed middle-aged ME guys, I'm fine with betting, but against average Vs here I'd be looking to check for pot control and to make getting value OTR more likely. If I did bet because of V profile, though, it would be at least half pot.

River is silly, imo. The bet is small enough that it might induce, but your hand is weak enough that you really don't want to. Again, population reads. I don't mind a b/f for value against a middle-class MAWG, but given a V who might well raise when he senses weakness, I far prefer a check-back. He's not calling three streets with worse for a decent-sized bet and might be going for a c/r with 2p+ or turning hands like 67 or Kx into a bluff.
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Old 03-07-2020, 10:25 AM   #4
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Re: 1/2 Thin Value, Wide Ranges, Dry Runout

$150 on the river
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Old 03-07-2020, 10:51 AM   #5
Garick
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Re: 1/2 Thin Value, Wide Ranges, Dry Runout

Why? Are we turning our hand into a bluff? Do we think worse will call?
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Old 03-07-2020, 11:00 AM   #6
sixsevenoff
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Re: 1/2 Thin Value, Wide Ranges, Dry Runout

One of the few occasions where I actually read the comments first. I already had my thoughts though, and they didn't change.

Pre is fine.

Flop I only go $15 - I think as long as we aren't downbetting, we have equal fold equity between $15 and $20, and $20 risks less.

Turn is fine; I would've gone $35, but that's nit picking, and less important than the flop sizing.

I do like river; I wouldn't go any larger than $50, and probably would've gone $40, but I do like going for super thin value. We have the best hand so often here, and I think we can get a crying call from KQ/KJ.

Betting $150 makes no sense. Like Garick said, we're turning our hand into a bluff with that sizing.
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Old 03-07-2020, 11:26 AM   #7
Erin1234
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Re: 1/2 Thin Value, Wide Ranges, Dry Runout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick View Post
Why? Are we turning our hand into a bluff? Do we think worse will call?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsevenoff View Post
One of the few occasions where I actually read the comments first. I already had my thoughts though, and they didn't change.

Pre is fine.

Flop I only go $15 - I think as long as we aren't downbetting, we have equal fold equity between $15 and $20, and $20 risks less.

Turn is fine; I would've gone $35, but that's nit picking, and less important than the flop sizing.

I do like river; I wouldn't go any larger than $50, and probably would've gone $40, but I do like going for super thin value. We have the best hand so often here, and I think we can get a crying call from KQ/KJ.

Betting $150 makes no sense. Like Garick said, we're turning our hand into a bluff with that sizing.
Be happy to comment later...there’s a sesh to be had atm. And check out my new thread for more info.
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Old 03-07-2020, 01:49 PM   #8
venice10
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Re: 1/2 Thin Value, Wide Ranges, Dry Runout

PF and flop are fine. On the turn, I prefer to check. I'm not real worried about a FD since the ace and king are out. Unless the villain as an ace, it should be a deal breaker to someone who doesn't have one. They're more likely to fold fearing a bigger bet on the river. By checking, I can play that I'm afraid of the ace. If the villain is more aggressive, he may bet the river to push me out or call me because he thinks I'm just trying to steal it.

As played, I'll check behind an unknown. I want to see what he calls the flop with. Any small amount I make now is replaced by knowing how loose the villain calls a flop bet.
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Old 03-07-2020, 02:52 PM   #9
Amanaplan
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Re: 1/2 Thin Value, Wide Ranges, Dry Runout

Routine a 3 street fish-stomp. Checking turn never, checking river never. Sizing is totally fine. He might call with better here and there, worse more, raising you rarely.
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Old 03-07-2020, 07:53 PM   #10
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Re: 1/2 Thin Value, Wide Ranges, Dry Runout

The only part of the hand I really don't like is preflop. ATo is a bit weak for an iso from the HJ, with four players who can wake up with a hand to three-bet.

Flop is an obvious c-bet. Turn is genuinely debatable. I can see betting, and I can see checking to induce. In the latter case, we can get a lot of value bets on the river from weaker aces.

I might be tempted to check back the river because of wondering what the villain can continue with when the ace hits. At the same time, if we don't value-own ourselves from time to time, we aren't value-betting the river enough. But if we do bet, we should bet relatively small. Betting $150, though, is spew, forcing worse hands to fold and getting calls from two-pair_plus sort of hands.

Notice that we unblock missed flush draws and also unblock 87 and the unlikely 32 or 73. We don't want to bet big when the villain has the nut advantage.
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Old 03-08-2020, 08:18 AM   #11
TJ Eckleburg12
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Re: 1/2 Thin Value, Wide Ranges, Dry Runout

Results: he called river fairly quickly and won with AJo, no heart.

Sweet flop float, though I guess it was really a value own.

In retrospect, I think I should be checking either the turn or the river, but I'm still not sure which is better.
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Old 03-08-2020, 09:44 AM   #12
sixsevenoff
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Re: 1/2 Thin Value, Wide Ranges, Dry Runout

You shouldn't be checking either street. Alan's point holds that if you aren't value owning yourself sometimes, then you aren't value betting enough.
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Old 03-09-2020, 12:04 AM   #13
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Re: 1/2 Thin Value, Wide Ranges, Dry Runout

Flop 1/3 pot, I don't consider this a stab spot, it's almost still a preflop spot given this kind of action happens all the time.

Turn is a mix of check and bet, I don't hate either but you should have some Ax when you check turn so you arent an open book. Sizing was fine.

River only a neophyte is going to pay three streets on this runout with worse so I'd bet $25 or something stupid that Kx, curious random pair can actually call. I'd be surprised if a worse hand called $50 even from a run of the mill donk
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