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1/2 Super deep river check raise 1/2 Super deep river check raise

08-22-2018 , 09:11 AM
Hero: (£1,100) LAG image been raising a lot of pots and taking them down with a cbet or delayed cbet most of the night and get the feeling players are a bit sick of it.

Villain: (covers) TAG good reg but has taken a battering tonight with lots of his good hands getting sucked out on so is stuck about £1.2k already and his visibly in a bad mood.

Hero and Villain have played with each other quite a bit and have some interesting river history.

OTTH

Preflop:
Folds round to Hero in MP who makes it £8 with 44 (standard sizing in unstraddled pots).

Folds to Villain in SB who 3bets to £34.

Folds back to Hero who makes the call based on position stack depth and V who appears to be tilting slightly.

Flop (£70) 1035

V leads for £37, H calls to see what develops on the Turn.

Turn (£144) 6

V leads again for £87, H calls.

River (£318) 7

V checks, H decides to go for value against all of Vs over pairs and bets £210.

V then raises to £666.

Hero???

Any feedback on all streets is welcome.
1/2 Super deep river check raise Quote
08-22-2018 , 09:32 AM
Easy fold to the river check-raise. Snapfold. The guy have the bettinglead when firing the turn, and if he is bluffing or wanna continue bluffing on the river he is way way more likely to just keep leading out,instead of going for a check-raise after you bet 2/3 pot on the river.

Also i think its a bit optimistic/wishful thinking to believe you are going to get value from overpairs with this riverbet on this 4 liner to a straight/backdoor flush board against a good TAG villain:unless you really are bluffing a whole lot with big riverbets and your range is still very wide compared to what is normal for other 1/2 players. I dont mind you betting the river for value of course, but overpairs is not neccessarily what you are targeting for value or what you hope to get called by in my opinion as i think he will dump those in this runout a healthy portion of the time.
1/2 Super deep river check raise Quote
08-22-2018 , 10:11 AM
I normally agree with most of Petrucci's advice but disagree here.

If this was some passive fish, then yes, snapfold. But we have a tilted reg here. If you fold, you are folding to almost exactly 89s. V should have almost no 4s in his range and I don't see how he gets to the river with a flush. Just don't see him firing a BDFD on the flop, picking up another club on the turn and the checking the river when it comes in. Seems risky to go for a X/r on the river. And does this V 3! 89s pre?

Conversely, you should have very few 4s in your range. I think when V checked the river and you bet, he convinced himself you were FOS trying to steal the pot and shoved the 666 devil bet back in your face. And it is sized to get a fold IMO and not for value. Don't like it, but I am going to call it off.

Again, most of the time this is snapfold, but I think there is some meta-game going on here with 2 players with history. CALL.
1/2 Super deep river check raise Quote
08-22-2018 , 10:38 AM
I'm not folding vs. a tilted villain here. We're at the top of our range. Villain can easily be spazzing out with an overpair.
1/2 Super deep river check raise Quote
08-22-2018 , 11:46 AM
Especially if V has the A of clubs. He knows you are a good player, so Hero can't have the nut flush and should be folding his entire range. Perfect card on the river for V to X/raise bluff.
1/2 Super deep river check raise Quote
08-22-2018 , 12:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CowboyCold
Especially if V has the A of clubs. He knows you are a good player, so Hero can't have the nut flush and should be folding his entire range. Perfect card on the river for V to X/raise bluff.
It is a decent spot deepstack to fire a huge bluff, IF this villain is check-raise bluffing at any real frequenzy at all. I dont know any 1/2 regs (or 2/5 players) for that matter who check-raise bluffs the river at all with this kind of money in play.Most players simply doesent have that play in their arsenal at all. River check-raise bluffs is superrare for any sizes, and especially in a bloated 3 bet pot like this where the board runout gives the caller a clear rangeadvantage.

So we have to agree to disagree i guess.

Last edited by Petrucci; 08-22-2018 at 12:45 PM.
1/2 Super deep river check raise Quote
08-22-2018 , 01:10 PM
I wouldn't advise having this play in your arsenal against fish, but against good thinking players it should be. It's in mine..
1/2 Super deep river check raise Quote
08-22-2018 , 01:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CowboyCold
I wouldn't advise having this play in your arsenal against fish, but against good thinking players it should be. It's in mine..
And all cred to you for having it in your arsenal, as mentioned 98 percent of LLSNL players doesent in my experience-regardless of what results is gonna be in this particular hand.
1/2 Super deep river check raise Quote
08-22-2018 , 01:28 PM
We have some Tx of clubs to call with so we're not at the very top of our range. Pretty gross but I'd try to make an exploitative fold here. Seems close tho and in game I'm pretty sure I cant find a fold.
1/2 Super deep river check raise Quote
08-22-2018 , 01:46 PM
The interesting river history you alluded to in the OP should have been included. If there's any chances he's bluffing here I think you can call. 2.6:1 means if he's bluffing like 30% of the time you can call. He isn't repping that many flushes and straights.
1/2 Super deep river check raise Quote
08-22-2018 , 01:57 PM
I can see this divides some people and it has divided my thoights since the moment it happened!

I tanked for about 5 minutes until I decided on a call. My thoughts were:
- he can hardly ever put me on a 4
- he could (as cowboycold mentioned) be doing this with AcX
- he is definitely capable of doing this as I've seen him get tricky on the river in the past
- the amount of bad beats he'd taken that night I thought had gotten to him

Anyway rather frustratingly he had the ol' K2

Sigh.

Is there any street people would play differently?
1/2 Super deep river check raise Quote
08-22-2018 , 02:34 PM
Wow! And I was wondering if 89s was in his 3! range. Petrucci nails it again.
1/2 Super deep river check raise Quote
08-22-2018 , 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CowboyCold
Wow! And I was wondering if 89s was in his 3! range. Petrucci nails it again.
What can i say, sorry
1/2 Super deep river check raise Quote
08-22-2018 , 03:23 PM
People don't c/r river at 1/2 without the nuts, it's just so incredibly rare. V is also probably folding overpairs often on this river after you call twice and bet river. I'd go much smaller on river, probably somewhere around 100. V can still have all sorts of flushes
1/2 Super deep river check raise Quote
08-22-2018 , 03:38 PM
And now one of the best crushers in Vegas comes in and piles on. I'll retreat to my 2/5 deep stack games where they don't respect my raises.
1/2 Super deep river check raise Quote
08-22-2018 , 03:51 PM
Just read through the rest of the post....my thoughts:

V can have almost anything when he bets the flop. When he bets the turn, his range should be all diamond and club draws, maybe AK, TT, and some overpairs, occasionally 88-99 but those hands shut down on the river. If V has AK he's going to fold river 98% of the time. If he has an overpair he will probably c/c a smaller size bet in the $75-140ish range. If he missed a diamond draw he's probably going to bet river again or c/f. If he smashed a backdoor club draw he's either going to bet huge on the river or go for a c/r hoping that you have two pair/set/straight. If you have history with V, especially trying to potentially bluff him in a large pot or value bet thinly with 2p in this spot, then his c/r makes a lot more sense than betting again since you are going to fold a lot of the time when just have a hand like Tx that checks back anyway, but he can maximize against the stronger portion of your range if you do bet and happen to have a value hand.

You have all Txcc and 3xcc in your range plus some hands like A4cc AJcc AQcc etc. so for V to c/r this river with anything but a flush seems suicidal and it's very unlikely that he has AcX here. Very few people even have the balls to use a nut blocker for a river c/r when your hand already looks very strong in betting the river for 2/3 pot. If he did have AcX, I'd expect a shove, not a 3x raise.
1/2 Super deep river check raise Quote

      
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