1/2 Very generic situation... 100 bb eff

Hero raises $12 in MP with TTsc, only CO calls (wide range)

Flop ($27): Q65
Hero bets $15, CO calls

Turn ($57): K
Hero checks, CO checks

River ($57): 4
Hero checks, CO bets $45, Hero ??

-V never checks a turned flush/2p.
-He also wouldn't slowplay a flopped 2p+.
-He also wouldn't thin-vbet Qx OTR.
-There are no Kx in his range. And they wouldn't check behind turn anyway.

a) In spots like these, I struggle to put V on a hand. It has to be a rivered straight/2p OR air. Are we ever calling any rivers in spots like these vs capable Vs? I know 78 got there in this spot, but what if the river was 2c? I'd still struggle with a call/fold.

b) Should we check flop in this spot to avoid this dilemma?

Fold due to sizing.

There are some holes in your logic. If he's not the type to bet weak hands on the turn then he's also not going to bet them on the river.

Given your assumptions this is a call, his bet size says bluff.

I however don't think the 4 helped him and I think he'd have K in his range. With his play I'm saying Q K or small flush. A fold is the play.


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Just fold river. TT is about the worst hand you get to the river with that bet the flop.

When did I say that he has weak hands in his river betting range? I'm saying it's difficult to give him a value hand except 87 or rivered 2p.

You didn't. Neither am I. That's my point. If he isn't betting a mediocre hand in the turn he's probably not betting it on the river either.

Depends on player type. Most good players are only betting (potting) river for value when they check back the turn. I can't see what he called flop with that he now wants to bluff after your actions indicate you possibly have no pair.

Other player types will call almost 100% cbets, always check back turn if they didn't make a hand, and almost always bet river as bluff - even with second or third pair - when checked to them.

I mean from villans perspective this is almost always how I would play qj or something like that, maybe I size a bit different, but if villan is as bad as me this is going to be a q very often.... Pretty easy fold in my view.

I just don't understand how the villain can show up with air here. Lets think about his calling range.... Qx, 78, 89, 79, 34, Mid pocket pair, all flush draws.

I think the flop play is fine either check or bet OOP. When you check you will have to plan on check calling and re-evaluating the turn. In this case lets say you did check call the flop and the turn comes the K of hearts, a significant amount of his range gets there. Making calling down here less profitable. I think in these situations unless you are playing against a maniac, picking a better spot or waiting to be in position will be more profitable

You're struggling with entitlement and expectations more than how you're actually playing.
You have a good hand, but didn't improve.
Villain probably had a worse hand, improved while taking a non standard line because they're bad.
That's poker.

Villan hasn't taken a weird line, this is a pretty standard way to play aq,qj,qt,23,78....

No, it's not a standard line for any of those hands.

1/2 players don't bluff enough, and ones that do bluff too much and you'll notice right away. If a 1/2 player does something weird and you can't figure it out, it is probably a made hand that was played poorly. A lot of players will check their high pairs on this turn because they are afraid a 4 flush will come even if they try to charge for a draw, then bet the river when it seems safe.

I think your reads on V are a bit contradictory. If he's a good thinking player why wouldn't he play Qx this way. He calls your flop bet with top pair, check a bad turn for pot control then value bets river when you check again (which means you're probably capped at AQ).

Also, if he's good, what hands does he get to river with that don't beat TT and also don't have SDV? Flush draws and 87 got there. Worse pocket pairs really should check behind.

Yeah, Qx makes sense. But then again, he's not good enough to thin value bet Qx OTR, unless it's exactly Q4s.