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Old 12-30-2013, 12:37 PM   #1
Ilovcash
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1/2 Shove turn?

1/2 Live cash game

I am btn with 99
After 2 limps I raise to $13
The 2 players call
Flop 3s 5x 9s
They Check and I bet $20
They both call.
Turn 3
They check
I bet $40, first player folds and the other player raises to $90.

After this raise, we both have a stack of $300.

My question is do we shove there or we just call?

Is it a better decision to go for max value in the turn with our full house?

Thank you.
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Old 12-30-2013, 12:46 PM   #2
iraisetoomuch
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Re: 1/2 Shove turn?

Flopp bet should be a little bit bigger.
In the area of $25-$30. $28 seems about right. It's 3/4 the pot (pot has $38 assuming some standard rake amount.)
Bunch of trash hands that flopped straight draws, flush draws, possible both. And we can easily look like we are just standard cBetting and get called down weaker so this bigger sizing is for fat value.

On the turn, we hit the nuts essentially. Pot has $98 in it, once again I like a slightly bigger bet. $50-$55. Once again this is for value.

After he raises, his range is very value heavy. There should be little draws in his range. So we certainly want to raise here. But not so big that he might fold. We have nothing to fear at all on the river, and we are IP so we never have to worry about him checking behind. With $300 more behind, I'd raise to $210 or so.

It'll be $120 into $400 for him to call, a great price, and if he calls, we can easily shove for our last $180 into $520 in on every river card.

I think shoving is just a little bit too big here. If we have $200 behind or less I think shoving would be fine.


Note: If we bet $28 on the flop, both likely call still.
Turn will have $122, we can bet $75. V will raise to $190-$200, making it much easier to stick it in on the turn. And if we didn't know that V was going to raise the turn (how could we) then the river pot would be $275. We can bet $175 on the river. As opposed to the $20, $40, $125 that we would be betting. Much value to be had with bigger sizing.
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Old 12-30-2013, 12:50 PM   #3
Ilovcash
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Re: 1/2 Shove turn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch View Post
Flopp bet should be a little bit bigger.
In the area of $25-$30. $28 seems about right. It's 3/4 the pot (pot has $38 assuming some standard rake amount.)
Bunch of trash hands that flopped straight draws, flush draws, possible both. And we can easily look like we are just standard cBetting and get called down weaker so this bigger sizing is for fat value.

On the turn, we hit the nuts essentially. Pot has $98 in it, once again I like a slightly bigger bet. $50-$55. Once again this is for value.

After he raises, his range is very value heavy. There should be little draws in his range. So we certainly want to raise here. But not so big that he might fold. We have nothing to fear at all on the river, and we are IP so we never have to worry about him checking behind. With $300 more behind, I'd raise to $210 or so.

It'll be $120 into $400 for him to call, a great price, and if he calls, we can easily shove for our last $180 into $520 in on every river card.

I think shoving is just a little bit too big here. If we have $200 behind or less I think shoving would be fine.
Thank you for your reply.
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Old 12-30-2013, 01:15 PM   #4
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Re: 1/2 Shove turn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch View Post
Flopp bet should be a little bit bigger.
In the area of $25-$30. $28 seems about right. It's 3/4 the pot (pot has $38 assuming some standard rake amount.)
Bunch of trash hands that flopped straight draws, flush draws, possible both. And we can easily look like we are just standard cBetting and get called down weaker so this bigger sizing is for fat value.

On the turn, we hit the nuts essentially. Pot has $98 in it, once again I like a slightly bigger bet. $50-$55. Once again this is for value.

After he raises, his range is very value heavy. There should be little draws in his range. So we certainly want to raise here. But not so big that he might fold. We have nothing to fear at all on the river, and we are IP so we never have to worry about him checking behind. With $300 more behind, I'd raise to $210 or so.

It'll be $120 into $400 for him to call, a great price, and if he calls, we can easily shove for our last $180 into $520 in on every river card.

I think shoving is just a little bit too big here. If we have $200 behind or less I think shoving would be fine.


Note: If we bet $28 on the flop, both likely call still.
Turn will have $122, we can bet $75. V will raise to $190-$200, making it much easier to stick it in on the turn. And if we didn't know that V was going to raise the turn (how could we) then the river pot would be $275. We can bet $175 on the river. As opposed to the $20, $40, $125 that we would be betting. Much value to be had with bigger sizing.
+1 and I would raise bigger preflop, 16-18
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Old 12-30-2013, 01:54 PM   #5
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Re: 1/2 Shove turn?

Flop raise sizing is fine IMO, flop c bet a little bigger as already been said, around 25-30. Turn, bet about 55-60, then villain's min raise would be to be about 130-150 enough for you to jam over the top with about 250 behind. Even if Villain fold's at this point with these bet/stack sizes, it's way +EV.

As played, since we have position, I would flat and prays villain bombs the river and gii there.
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Old 12-30-2013, 02:14 PM   #6
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PF fine, Flop fine.

Turn bet needs to be bigger, 55-65.

As played shove = call > raise >>fold.

Personally I shove here the majority of the time.
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Old 12-30-2013, 02:15 PM   #7
examinedexercises
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch View Post
Flopp bet should be a little bit bigger.
In the area of $25-$30. $28 seems about right. It's 3/4 the pot (pot has $38 assuming some standard rake amount.)
Bunch of trash hands that flopped straight draws, flush draws, possible both. And we can easily look like we are just standard cBetting and get called down weaker so this bigger sizing is for fat value.

On the turn, we hit the nuts essentially. Pot has $98 in it, once again I like a slightly bigger bet. $50-$55. Once again this is for value.

After he raises, his range is very value heavy. There should be little draws in his range. So we certainly want to raise here. But not so big that he might fold. We have nothing to fear at all on the river, and we are IP so we never have to worry about him checking behind. With $300 more behind, I'd raise to $210 or so.

It'll be $120 into $400 for him to call, a great price, and if he calls, we can easily shove for our last $180 into $520 in on every river card.

I think shoving is just a little bit too big here. If we have $200 behind or less I think shoving would be fine.


Note: If we bet $28 on the flop, both likely call still.
Turn will have $122, we can bet $75. V will raise to $190-$200, making it much easier to stick it in on the turn. And if we didn't know that V was going to raise the turn (how could we) then the river pot would be $275. We can bet $175 on the river. As opposed to the $20, $40, $125 that we would be betting. Much value to be had with bigger sizing.
I agree with this bet sizing analysis but I don't think 3betting the turn is the most optimal play. Just call and let villain value town himself with 3x. If you call any reasonable River bet puts in at least half his remainjbg stack. Raise him then

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Old 12-30-2013, 03:20 PM   #8
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Am I the only one leaning towards a call? If we shove isn't he only call us with a 3 or 55? I would call and see what V does on river, hopefully he shoves.
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Old 12-30-2013, 04:09 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beauvanlaanen View Post
Am I the only one leaning towards a call? If we shove isn't he only call us with a 3 or 55? I would call and see what V does on river, hopefully he shoves.
I'm fine with a call or a shove. I don't like a raise or a fold.
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Old 12-30-2013, 05:16 PM   #10
Ilovcash
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Re: 1/2 Shove turn?

Thank you for your posts.

To continue this story, the River shows a 3.

The "fishy" opponent bets $45 and I just call.

He had quads.
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Old 12-30-2013, 05:51 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilovcash View Post
Thank you for your posts.

To continue this story, the River shows a 3.

The "fishy" opponent bets $45 and I just call.

He had quads.
lol
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Old 12-30-2013, 07:43 PM   #12
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Re: 1/2 Shove turn?

I woukd raise to about 160 rather than jam.
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Old 12-30-2013, 09:30 PM   #13
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Re: 1/2 Shove turn?

Don't post results anywhere near this quickly (if at all).

I'm not a fan of shoving the turn. I think it folds out hands that would otherwise bet again on the river, all of which are drawing nearly dead.

Flat now, ship if he bets the river, and bet yourself if he checks. Torn on sizing OTR though.
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Old 12-30-2013, 10:13 PM   #14
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So many Sklansky $s were lost on this turn. So many real $s were saved though.

When i was really bad a poker (as opposed to just pretty bad) this situation would have made me happy.

Now it just makes me angry.
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Old 12-30-2013, 10:36 PM   #15
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Re: 1/2 Shove turn?

I'm assuming you just called turn? I would have bet more on the flop. I'm fine with the smaller amount bet on the turn as you can value many V's on this turn which are essentially dead. I also flat his re-raise as he is most likely gonna hang himself on the river anyways. A 3bet migh fold him out. Definitely a cooler.
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Old 12-31-2013, 03:12 AM   #16
Ilovcash
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Re: 1/2 Shove turn?

Sorry for posting the result so quickly.

I just called turn and decided to flat call river since quads play in his range.

Absolutely a cooler, maybe I was so lucky that the stacks weren't bigger. Definitely I would have raised on the turn in this case.
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Old 12-31-2013, 03:15 AM   #17
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Re: 1/2 Shove turn?

Shove.
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Old 12-31-2013, 04:48 AM   #18
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Interesting spot.

I doubt V is bluffing here so I think he will fire river into you after you call. A spade could kill your action on river possibly however. I put V on a 3 or an overpair and shove now.

Even if V is bluffing your smooth call on turn will usually shut him down on river.
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