$1/$2 NL Hold'em at Venetian.

Villain sitting $200 and some change. Hero has covered. Villain has been needling a guy to my right when he's brought up pros he has met and places he has seen. Pretty much mocking him by saying "oh yeah, real interesting" etc. He had some chips, so not sure if villain was in for 3 or 4 shells and lost a big pot to him. Hero did turn two pair against pocket aces not long ago, and he stacked off, so I know he's stuck at the very least.

Hero is dealt QJ and min-raises pre-flop to $4, which is a move I almost never do, but I did it because the table talk actually was about min-raising pre-flop in $1/$2 games. One of those silly moments where I just did it to be dumb.

One caller, Villain raises to $20 from the small blind, and it folds to me, barring the caller behind. I figured he is folding. Ordinarily I'd lay this down, but I felt with the info on him, he was in blow-up mode. So I call with my Q-J off and take a heads-up flop in position.

Flop ($44 after rake): KJ3

Villain fired $25, and I figure I'm not folding a pair here to one bet, given my pre-flop read. I call.

Turn ($94): 3

Villain does not let off the gas and bets $60. This is where I can easily relent without regret, but I think for a moment and just lock in my head that I am calling, figuring any straight draw is in his range, and he may be trying to blow me off anything less than K-Q. I make the call, with the intent to call any 'safe' river card if he barrels again, or happily check it on a river that doesn't improve my hand.

River ($214): 6

Board: KJ336

Perfect card for hero's plans. Villain cuts out his remaining reds, and puts a stack out for a $100 river bet. He had whites behind, so not an official shove, but essentially. I snap call, sticking to my plan on the turn.

The question here: How often should I be calling each street? Perhaps folding pre-flop is the best play to avoid this kind of situation, but is Q-J fine to play heads-up, in position, given the info, even though it's bound to be a bloated pot? Is snap-calling the river alright given that was my intention on the turn, or should I reassess for a moment when he makes such river bet?

Fold to the 3bet pre your hand sucks and stacks are short.

After that the rest of the hand is a massive spew. I guess you call the flop? But easy fold on the turn and river, what do we beat? Just weirdly barreled AQ?

Live OOP 3bet ranges are strong, just fold pre. You need a lot stronger reads to suspect he could be doing it light, because that is rare. Even so your hand sucks.

Thanks for your input.

Do note that while officially it's a 3-bet, in essence this is just a bloated raise. My min-raise might as well be a limp. Plus, he struck me as the type that would be tilted by the min-raise and try to pick up loose change.

That is a valid point, I agree. But QJo is just not a good hand. Normal 3bet or not, we're way behind villain's SB raising range. You're putting too much stock into a thin read that he's steaming.

Other than that, calling the flop is okay, but what is he barreling the turn with that we beat? Just wishful thinking that he has many bluffs here.

Lol every street is bad.

Fold pre (you were utg, also don't min raise to be a goofball, its -ev)

Fold flop

Flop turn

Fold river

and fold J8o to an EP raise.

and when you 3bet AQo against a fish for value, don't call flop when you whiff, don't call turn when you still have ace-high no draw, and don't bluff the river when he checks to you.

Just some advice from someone who was at the table :-) you were way too loose, calling way too widely, and trying way too hard to be a hero. As displayed in this hand you posted.

And villain in this hand was just annoyed at the Canadian kid because he was the biggest tool in the room

Fold pre to raise always. As played you should not snap river. Think about each of your decisions. Even though you called and the board did not change, you still must consider the one piece of new information which is the bet he placed on the river. Villains rarely triple barrel.

On a related note, I tried a min-raise this weekend. Villain then 3-bet me and I put in the old trusty 4-bet and he folded Queens. Unfortunately one of the fish couldn't fold AToff and then tank called my shove on an 8 high flop. }=(

Don't 4bet in that spot

What are you repping? You got super lucky that he folded QQ there lol

Now the J-8 was sooted at least.

I don't recall the A-Q hand?

Thanks for your input on this particular hand. This is why I posted it. I'm trying to see if I was wrong. I am an instinctive player, and it normally works for me, so I went with what my head told me this hand. I think Q-J plays well heads-up in position just fine for me to take a flop.

I was playing a looser game for sure, but I actually still like this river call here. This particular villain was the only player at the table I'm playing this hand against. The J-8 hand I know was very lucky I just happened to flop top pair and peel a turn that gave me 2 pair. If I don't improve, I had full intentions on folding his turn bet.

You were at the table, so was seat 1 in for 3-4 barrels?

It was a short-handed 5/10 game. There was already a limper, I min-raised to $20 (something I have never done) and when villain popped it to $70 (standard raises were anywhere from $35 to $60) I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that his 3-bet range vs a min-raise would be fairly light and would include hands like KQ, AT/AJ etc. I didn't expect him to fold QQ there but I was pretty much repping Aces/Kings with the 4bet and I don't think any of us had ever seen a min-raise like that from a competent player but it's unlikely that one would ever make a bet like that to induce with AK. Villain tank folded QQ. Other villain insta-folded 88 and I didn't realize (but soon discovered) how bad the last villain was who flatted for 40% of his stack with AToff lol.

This is all.

Lol dont call raises with J8s. You think just because its suited its +EV? And I don't believe you were going to fold the turn if you missed. You don't even believe that. You're calling with ace-high and middle pair in 3bet pots. You're not "an instinctual player", you're a calling station who goes into "**** it call down mode".

QJo is a hand thats going to be easily dominated by his 3bet range. In addition, when you do hit, youre unlikely to get paid.

I'm not sure why you still like the river call when you're crushed by his 3-barrel range and everyone ITT told you you're spewing. you're being results oriented. He could easily show up with AA, AK, KK, JJ, KJ, or KQ and thats a much bigger part of his range than his bluffs.

In thr AQ hand, a fish raised, you 3bet, he called. Flop was Kxx. He bet , you called. Turn blank. He bet, you call. River brought in some draw. He check, you bluff, he calls with KK. Wtf were you even doing there?

Idk how much villain was in for




You're not repping AA/KK because you'd never min raise those

"LOLZ mInRaZe"
"Oh noes, a rays. probz gonna blow up so I call."
"Eye HAZ PAIR. CALL."
"K HIGH? Obv gonna barrel like DK here. I calls."
"Riv3r's totes a blank and I still haz pair. Nothing's changed so I call. LOLspewtard."

LOLz.

What I do find interesting here, is that judging by the responses, people think calling 3 barrels with 2nd pair is ALWAYS lighting money on fire. Allow me to add his river betting range.

What is he betting with that beats us? Kings full, sure pocket Aces, and the slim possibility he has the two case jacks. If he has queens, betting every street makes no sense. Same with other jacks, unless he figures me to folding a king-no-kicker.

In $1/$2, people don't often barrel every street with top pair alone, in my experience. Maybe it's A-K, but I'm just not putting him on that. Maybe I don't have any good reason to not, and it's definitely in his range, but I just didn't put him on any lone king.

So the hands that beat us, even if I do include A-K are that, Aces, and Kings/Jacks full. How many times in $1/$2 do people check sets on the flop? If not, when the board pairs the turn, do people not often check to induce with their boats? Most people are afraid of not getting any value with monsters. This is all what I'm thinking about on the turn, but I didn't want to make the outcome of the hand too obvious in my OP.

I eliminate kings and jacks full, so the only hands that make sense now are aces and A-K. Again, I never put him on A-K for whatever reason. Again, probably a hand that is dead on in his range, but we're trusting our read here. So it's Aces or the range he is firing with that we have beat:

A-Q, A-10, Q-10, and middle pairs turned into a bluff. Let's also not discount the fact maybe he's putting me on a straight draw, or exactly my hand, with my hesitation call on the turn.

So I ask this question: How is the river bet NEVER more likely to be him blowing me off a marginal hand, in comparison to being Aces or A-K? Why is he ALWAYS betting hands that beat us in this spot?

In my last post, I didn't put K-J in his ahead-of-me range. My mistake on that. K-Q I don't see him betting every street with.

I kind of recall the A-Q hand now. It took place before the J-8 hand, right? But I am not so sure that was the line. This was two weeks ago, so I don't recall much about that hand. I do remember bluffing a river and perhaps that led me to playing the J-8 sooted (yes, I think playing sooted cards are +EV when I respond 'sooted' with two o's, instead of properly). But I did have full intention of laying any non-improving turn card. I'm glad my image was as a spewtard, though. That's the image that gets me paid.

I'm not going to say I'm a great player by any means, but in hands like this, I make reads and stick to them. It's how I make my profits in cash games. If that's not proper, then I guess it will even itself out eventually and I'll get abused for it. Thus far I haven't, though.

My biggest leak I do admit, is that I tend to not easily give up on some pots. I actually worked on bettering that later in the trip. This was still early in it. Like I think this was two weeks ago on that Monday? I was still in the first day of my trip and was splashing around more than I should have. That does make a difference as far as one's mindset.

Your range for him here makes no sense. The whole theory you have for this hand is that he's in "blow up mode" (don't know what that means), but he could never triple barrel a top pair type hand? He could clearly have AK, KQ, KJ, KT. Moreover, he's not triple barreling with top pair, but he could be turning middle pair into a bluff? Also, if he's steaming he could have a random 3 pretty easily.

My view is you have a bluff-catcher, no reason to believe that V fires three barrels on bluffs, a board that is K-high without any missed draws other than the gut-shot. Maybe you were right here and he had A-high, but think you have to fold turn.

I've suffered from this leak too. One way I've improved it is to have my first thought be, when faced with a meaningful turn and (particularly) river bet, is to consider what value hands V may make the bet with, and how many of them I'm ahead of. It's too easy to try to list all the hands that V may be bluffing with, but people don't bluff that often in 1/2. Of course you can refine this with reads, and I'm not saying to always fold a bluff catcher if the story they're telling doesn't make sense, but recognize that big bets on later streets usually represent good hands. Here, you don't beat any value hands, so solely on the river have to hope that he's bluffing here at least 25% of the time, which seems optimistic.

I never min-raise anything.

OP you are really bad at hand reading

Its not even that you're bad, its that you're obviously trying to invent reasons to call down when they don't exist

Often times, you will be right and villains will muck when you make a douchey "move the chips one inch forward but not beyond the betting line" type call. But in the long run this is a -ev line on every street.

Not sure why you posted this if you're going to defend this terrible play to the death when literally not one poster has said this is even close to an ok line

It mostly comes down to the fact that you haven't provided any good reasons for calling down.

Your reason for eliminating AK is "I just didn't put him on that." Good reasoning.
Your reason for elimating KK and JJ is because you think he'd check top set to induce. LOL, bro you're a calling station. If I have a set against you I'm bombing three streets.

Since you cannot come up with a good reason for why you called down (and im guessing the reason you posted this is so we could check your thought process?) This hand is clearly spew.

Every other hand I watched you play was also very poorly played. Lol at you saying calling raises OOP with J8s is +EV.

If you're posting brags, do it in bbv

The point is that in the long run, in a vacuum, this line you took was horribly -ev

Ok I should add some substance to my previous comment.

1. PF I really don't like flatting QJo HU. Even if I'm in position, SB raise is going to be towards the top end of any players range. Also 20 into 5? Lets just let it go.

2. Flop and turn are both spew, imo. Middle pair vs a PF raiser who should be more often holding a K (AK), QQ based on PF. Turn he doesn't slow down, we don't improve, so same position as flop and he still shows strength. We should be behind.

3. River is just...Very rarely in LLSNL do players triple barrel bluff. It's safe to assume he's got a J beat.

$20 is a bit heavy but since you did the cutesy crap with the min-raise the pot is over-inflated. I'd probably call because I'm hard headed like that, but when you phrase it as putting in 10% of eff stacks with QJo, it sounds really bad.

Flop is actually the only street that looks ok. I'm not folding a pair in that spot for one bet vs a player who might be stuck/pissed-off/dumb.

Rest of the hand is pure AIDS as is OP's reasoning. FFS man, he 10x'd pre and then bet 1/2 pot or more on every street. If you have some great in game read that tells you to call, so be it, but you aren't going to be able to communicate that very well to the forum.

I posted this for the purpose of seeing what people thought. I got what I wanted out of it. I am trying to justify the play, but if it is not justifiable, then alright, that's why I made this thread.

Thanks everyone for your opinions. I posted this to determine if it really was a bad play, explained my thought process throughout the hand, and concluded it clearly was not the best play, regardless of the situation. I'm just a situational player and figured it to be a decent spot.

Duke, if you seriously think I'm saying calling with J-8 suited or not is +EV, when I'm making sarcasm, then please loosen dafuq up. I know internet text is hard to distinguish a joke from a real post, but come on.

Also, you just 'lol' at my points about eliminating his value range. Okay, you haven't had a time where a hand that does make sense, you just don't put an opponent on? There's no good reason, but you're making a read. And sure, you might flop a set against me, turn a boat, bomb every street, and could get me to pay you off. Then again, you may not. So those times you don't, would you then understand my reasoning for why general players in $1/$2 rarely bomb 3 streets with such strong hands? People try to trap monsters.

Now I do value your opinion. You seem like a solid player that just kept getting coolered, if you're the one I am thinking you are. Seat 9 in that game?

Part of my explaining or justifying actually has clearly admitted it wasn't the most proper play, but I was also trying to figure why ALWAYS and NEVER seem to be it. I've found it profitable to call later streets light against certain opponents.

Now my style of play I know does not work for probably a high percentage of players, but I buy on to cash games deeper, specifically so I can play pots. I know what I am doing later streets. A big part of my game is to trust my post-flop play, use implied odds to my advantage, and get myself sticking the money in as a favorite. Sure, I make very questionable plays early, but I make a lot of good assessments on the flop-and-later.

Other than the apparent A-Q bomb, which sure maybe I was trying to be too much of a hero and fire money into the abyss (still can't recall details of that hand, but I'll own up to it) . . . I got the money in with the best hand. That's what I keep as important in whether I played fine or not.

I should look more into bet sizing in relation to effective stacks. I always try to keep in my head what any opponent I'm up against has roughly behind, and how they've played or acted at the table recently.

For the record, I did call down every street and he had ace-high. Believe it was a spew or actually was my read of the situation. I'm not concerned either way. I got what I wanted out of this thread and will learn from it moving forward.

So your Jacks beat his A?
Sounds like a good hand.
Great read.