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1/2 rate my nit play 1/2 rate my nit play

05-02-2014 , 09:30 PM
Typical 1/2 Table has been very passive with lots of limping. A couple new players joined recently and have caused the table to be slightly more active with a few raises per orbit.

(225)Hero young 20s male. Been at table for about 2 hours and likely viewed as uber nit due to being extremely card dead. Few hands I have played have been raised pots by me and have been taken down on flop or turn with no showdowns.

(175) V1 OMC/ABC playing very few hands and can't remember him ever raising preflop besides a couple $5 opens. He has been at table since I sat down.

V1 raises 12 utg+1

V2 calls in mp. (Not relevant to hand)

Hero makes it 35 from SB with red AA
(My first mistake I miscalculated pot, raise to 45 sound better? Also this is the first pot I had 3b)

V1 thinks for a moment and flats and V2 folds

Flop KQ7 rainbow (85ish)

Hero leads 40 and Villain calls

Turn off suit J

Hero checks blagh

Villain bets 50 fairly quickly

Hero?

The villains preflop raise to 12 was what bothered me. My thinking is he could easily have a set and less likely 2 pair. About the only hand in his range I am beating is AK IMO.
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05-02-2014 , 10:12 PM
I think you are beat if he is truly OMC. i dont think he even bets AK OTT after you 3 bet pre. Seems bad to fold getting 4:1 but i think you will be able to find much better spots. Plus he bet ~1/2 of his remaing stack, this seems strong to me.
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05-03-2014 , 08:39 AM
Thanks for response Beatsme. Bumping for a couple more comments.
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05-03-2014 , 09:00 AM
The board is horrible. I actually check flop and turn and bet fold river pop if v checks back both flop and turn. Another line is bet fold turn after checking flop.

Pre definitely betting bigger as omc calls with his entire opening range.

As played call turn hoping to bink. If miss check fold river unless v bets super small.
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05-03-2014 , 09:15 AM
I don't mind flop bet as played I check fold turn as you beat exactly nothing in his 3bet call range and he's always checking back ak.
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05-03-2014 , 12:15 PM
Sets.. So
Many sets...
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05-04-2014 , 07:30 PM
Yeah raise more PF. I wouldn't totally rule out AK or even an unlikely bluff. One question to ask is if he raises you again PF with KK.

Edit: After stoving this a few times I think it's close. I'd either fold turn or check/fold river. I'm probably just folding the turn.

Last edited by Steve00007; 05-04-2014 at 07:52 PM.
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05-04-2014 , 10:00 PM
I'd always bet flop and snap c/f turn.
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05-04-2014 , 11:46 PM
I'd probably check back flop. Turn is a fold with him leading into us for half his stack. AK does this with a very low frequency.
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05-05-2014 , 12:24 AM
EDIT: Initially I missed the OP that said V was an OMC/ABC player that hadn't raised in 2 hours. Based on that, we can puke fold the turn



Below is my post regarding typical 1/2nl players in this spot and why I would feel more or less okay with our AA here vs majority of 1/2nl rec fish. However, again, based on OP I would just puke fold the turn here as sick as it sounds. And oh, also, the 3-bet pre is a touch low, needs $45 ish. One of there reasons we can actually 3-bet a lot bigger here is because since he is an OMC that hasn't raised in 2 hours, his EP raising range is going to be QQ/KK the vast majority of the time (since we hold AA). And OMC is never folding QQ/KK preflop after sitting around for 2 hours waiting for a hand. We can 3-bet to $45 or even $55 and he is calling. We can then get stacks in on any lowball or midball flop and turn. Just sucks this flop was about the worst for our hand..

Spoiler:
I think the only set V has here is QQ. I think KK repops us preflop. Also, usually these villains have horrible sizing tells preflop with QQ type hands. They don't want to get "cracked" and so usually they raise a lot bigger with QQ and KK hands.

So my thinking is that V's range is weighted more towards AK than it is towards QQ/KK. There is no way V floats the flop bet with JJ so we can discount that. I also don't think V raises from UTG with KQ that just isn't typical in 1/2nl where players are horribly nitty with their opening raises especially from EP.

I think V has enough AK here for us to call and reevaluate river. I think I c/c most rivers as long as the betting is 1/2 pot or less.

Again, KQ is not in his range here and neither is JJ. I think KK and QQ bet WAY MORE preflop due to the typical "I hate getting my monster hands cracked" mentality that is prevalent in 1/2nl and I think KK 4-bets pre a significant percentage of the time. Thus, AK should be a significant weight of V's range here. Its the hand that V can raise "weak" preflop because villains don't consider it a real hand at this level and it can simultaneously call a semi-weak 3-bet preflop. Come flop, villain can easily overvalue AK with no regard to what the hell we could have and imo this will come out in the sizing on turn and river.

Obviously if he blasts river we can fold. If we bink an Ace I'd shove, if we bink a T then we are probably chopping, we can bet 1/2 pot or even just shove (I'm a fan of shoving the nuts on the river in spots like these 10% - 20% of the time).

As played, I'd blocking bet the turn, lead out $50 and we can always bet fold here if V jams us. I'd also plan on bet/folding river since players in spots like this just don't have it in them to turn AK into a bluff on a board like this.

Reason I don't like checking the turn is that there are a breed of players in 1/2nl that once you check, they think their TPTK is good and they actually will blast the pot like they have the nuts. So it makes it hard to judge whether they are betting so big because they are ahead of our AA or because they think their AK is the nuts because we checked. So they pick up a lot of fold equity against us if we check because now we start thinking that based on their sizing they are nutted when in reality they are just playing level 1 poker and are blasting the pot merely because they think they are ahead and aren't thinking about extracting value...

Last edited by dgiharris; 05-05-2014 at 12:36 AM.
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05-05-2014 , 10:38 AM
Yes, this wasn't a good flop vs v's range. But the spr was less than 2, aren't we committed on basically any flop? Pre too small, flop too small, turn I'm closing my eyes and shoving it in.
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05-05-2014 , 10:49 AM
this seems like an easy fold on the turn. if you hate folding AA then i dont mind a blocker bet of sorts on the turn.
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05-05-2014 , 11:03 AM
Grunch

I think the $35 pre is an ok number. $45 might blow everyone off the hand right there.

As for the hand...this omc hasn't raised over $5 in the 2 hours you have been sitting there, and now he raises to $12 in EP, so I am putting his range at QQ+ and AK (maybe) . I honestly want to discount AK because it sounds like this guy would probably fold that hand to a 3b.

I don't know if you can fold here (I probably couldn't make myself fold for $50 in this spot) , but I think you are either beat or chopping.
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05-05-2014 , 07:49 PM
If he flopped a set, do you think he would have only called the flop?
Do you think he had JJ ?
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05-06-2014 , 06:21 AM
you all sick nits...he doesnt even have 90bb pre ...who is folding AK preflop live ?nobody ... 3b more pre an ship turn ....if he has QQQ tell him gg and moove on

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05-06-2014 , 10:54 AM
As played I would call turn and re-evaluate his riverbet. I agree with DGI that AK is a larger chunk of his range and he is more likely to be betting tptk without much other thought.

And yes I would raise to $45 at least pre since he surely loves his hand.
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05-06-2014 , 11:58 AM
raise to 50 pre
cbet larger
bet turn

as played obv call turn

you werent joking when you said u were nitty
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05-06-2014 , 12:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by r0me0X
you all sick nits...he doesnt even have 90bb pre ...who is folding AK preflop live ?nobody ... 3b more pre an ship turn ....if he has QQQ tell him gg and moove on

Sent from my GT-I9505 using 2+2 Forums
this
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05-06-2014 , 02:00 PM
Thank you for responses everyone. I ended up check folding. If i had raised more pre and fired more on flop I don't think I could have gotten away but with the way I played it I felt I could still fold turn.

Disclaimer: this was my first session with an actual bankroll and tracking my results. I was dead set on booking a win on my first session and this defiNITly brought out my inner nit.
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05-06-2014 , 02:09 PM
Why did you check the turn? Your reasoning for checking should also guide your response to his bet.

Based on your post, you seem pretty certain you're behind and that you're drawing to 6 outs. At LLSNL, I think checking in this spot is a reasonable and often optimal line due to most Vs poor sizing. If you can draw profitably, do so, if not dump it. In this instance it appears that you cannot. We can't expect to get paid if a T hits the river, so our implied odds are reliant upon 2 outs.

Good check, now fold.
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05-06-2014 , 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyvercetti
I don't mind flop bet as played I check fold turn as you beat exactly nothing in his 3bet call range and he's always checking back ak.
Yup - if description of V1 is accurate I think we are good about 0% of the time in this spot. I don't see how villian can bet AK for value or as a bluff OTT and i don't see anything else in his range we are ahead of.
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05-06-2014 , 05:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkTilt
Thank you for responses everyone. I ended up check folding. If i had raised more pre and fired more on flop I don't think I could have gotten away but with the way I played it I felt I could still fold turn.

Disclaimer: this was my first session with an actual bankroll and tracking my results. I was dead set on booking a win on my first session and this defiNITly brought out my inner nit.
Sounds like you made the right play to me - nice job.

Get over the whole "booking a win," concept fast. The point of having a bankroll and spreadsheet is to get all sessions to start to meld together.

People can never understand why I'm not upset/happy at dumping/winning $1000 at NLH but I get furious with myself when i play black jack and lose like $200. Answer is simple - poker wins make an envelope fatter, losses make it thiner. None of the money touches my real life as I am still a break even player at best.

I understand and accept varience so I know individual losses and wins at poker are meaningless. I also know I should never ever ever ever ever ever step into the casino pit for some -EV games, but I just can't help myself sometimes. Money lost in the pit comes out of my wallet - NEVER out of my poker roll.
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