Main villain sits with $320 and is utg. We are in CO and have him outchipped. Table is 6 handed. Main villain is older fellow. Early 50s hasn't played a ton of hands. Other villain is in SB with $130 mawg - seems competent. Otth.


We have QQ.

Utg raises to $7
I 3bet to 25
SB shoves
Utg takes probably 15-20 seconds and reships ai.

Hero ??

Even 6 handed, I'd fold. Just can't see QQ being in good shape against an older gentleman's 5! jam range. Didn't run the numbers, but if you give the main V all 16 combos of AK then you might theoretically have the equity to GII with the short stack's $130 in the pot. For me though, I'm going to assume a normal older player's 5! GII range in a multi-way pot is AA/KK exclusively (and often just AA) until he shows me otherwise.

I have to agree QQ is never good there. Calling AIP in that spot you are just hoping they have each others outs (AK v AK v QQ) so in the long run that’s a good fold. The only way I call there is if I’m up a lot that session and they are both short stacked, but even then I might think twice.


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If the time is an odd number shove, if it's an even number fold.

Describing V as older fellow isn’t going to be good enough to make this thread useful. The way the betting went I lean towards jamming / calling but if you tell me V is a nit or OMC I can understand a fold. I also don’t get butt hurt when I get stacked.

Fold. Probably a stack off in theory but live players are massive nits when they put their money in pre as the aggressor. I routinely fold QQ to 4-bets readless and sometimes even 3-bets with reads. It kind of looks like an iso but they most likely just have what they always have when 160BB go in.

Next time you’re playing 1/2 try to count how many times you get 3-bet. IIRC today I got 3-bet exactly once out of dozens of raises. I saw multiple people showdown QQ, JJ, AK as prefllop cold callers (or even limp/callers!). AK is a light 3-bet to the average live player. Doesn’t matter if it’s UTG+1 vs UTG or BU vs CO because they’re not positionally aware.

Not folding with the deadish money and if he has any chance of having AK. Need a solid read of nittiness to fold here. Can't imagine villain folds JJ or doesn't shove. Also shoving with AA would be bad.

Okay so two factors made me really think about this hand:

1) It is different than a regular 5 bet situation as he could be isoing.
2) His time tanking: would people really tank with AA?

Results: I tanked a minute and folded. UTG turns over JJ, SB had 6s.

90% of players will just call with JJ/AK here and some will actually fold. Their strategies are so fundamentally flawed. Live poker is a joke.

There isn't any dead money in the pot and we are getting very poor pot odds considering only $25 invested.

I said deadish meaning SB has a weak range. There's other factors that can sway you either way. But I think you're overestimating the populations line and play with AK/JJ. Even gobblegobble isos JJ here if he didn't limp in the first place.

Why do you think SB has a weak range? 65BB isn't that short and he's cold 4-bet shoving over an UTG open and a 3-bet. Of course he had 66 but I don't think it's reasonable to consider his range to be that wide.

{JJ+, AK}
{88+, ATs+, AQo+, KQs}
QQ

Against these ranges we have an EV of .3656*385+.4737*380-295 = $26. Tweak them if you want but I think this is optimistic. If you discount UTG by half each of AKo, JJ and AA, calling is about breakeven at $5 EV.

Possibly selection bias but I feel like most of the times I watch this spot go down or I'm in it they have AA and I roll my eyes.

It's also possible I'm biased by my player pool. I'm pretty sure that more than half of the guys I play with don't even 3-bet AK. It's like half the time a 3-bet gets shown down and I'm like "how is this always AA." Then I watch them cold call pre and showdown QQ and I go "oh."

When I look at all the 5 bet ships for 100bb or more online from the hands I've seen I haven't seen a hand worse than AK. Range is AK, KK, AA. That's it.

I guess the point everyone's making is you shouldn't be frustrated by the results of this hand. So Vs turned out to be wider than excepted. Well a lot of the time - if not most of the time - they're going to have a better hand than you. You lost a little this time but you didn't make a huge mistake either. Long run if you can minimize your losses while maximizing your gains (i.e., have AA/KK here), that's a good thing.

Or, "wait for a better spot."

Also, something tells me you didn't have good reads on your opponents if this is what they showed up with and you folded. Just a guess. Especially since the pfr jammed/iso'd JJ. Maybe you recently joined the game?

Table had just been opened for about 10-20 mins.

Also, I'm not frustrated at all. Just wanted the discussion around utgs perceived range in 1) short handed 2) potentially isoing light vs. regular 5 bet 3) correct line with dead money in 4) him tanking 15-20 seconds.

I am in agreement with everyone's conclusion and assessment hence why I ultimately decided to fold.

Instafold

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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Dumbo's post that you quoted was terrible, really bad. And everyone wasn't in agreement that it was a fold.

Not trying to be a dick, but don't just look for confirmation. Find the posts that advocate for something other than what you would have done and work to understand them.

Occasionally we are up against AK who recognizes this as a good time to ship (he’s right if so). But really I just expect to see a hand QQ is in bad shape against way too often for the price we are getting.

We do have to worry about the sb too. It’s a lot of money and we don’t have a ton invested, so we don’t need to call very often.


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I must be a bit of a psycho because I remember a few hands of mine from back in the day that ended with me raise / jamming AJo against certain (mostly Scandinavian) opponents.


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In a live $1/2 game this weekend I watched a player fold AKdd preflop for a 100bb all-in and get shown 83o. Not directly correlatable to this hand other than to say that the spazz factor is higher than most give credit for.

Now I just think you're trying to bait me.

This is now your second ridiculous statement in this thread. And whereabouts in my last post, where I explicitly stated "I want a discussion around utg range", do you see that I am seeking posts that confirm my line?