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Old 06-08-2013, 07:34 PM   #1
pokerbrah
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1-2 q10 s otb turn trips

hero OTB(200)has yet to play a hand of any significance through about 3-4 orbits

villain 1(utg +1)(300) 50s just sat down, this is his first hand

villain 2 CO(250) 30s? pretty bad, goes in the tank every time utg for close to 2minutes to eventually limp4


hero dealt qdTd otb

villain one raises to 10 utg +1

villain 2 calls in the CO

Hero otb Calls

~32

9 10 5r

villain 1 leads 15 villain 2 calls hero calls


~75

10d now diamond draw

villain 1 bets 25 villain 2 calls, hero calls


river is a blank

villain 1 bets 30 villain 2 calls 30

~210

hero raise to ____?



thoughts on prior streets as well
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Old 06-08-2013, 08:05 PM   #2
matzah_ball
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Re: 1-2 q10 s otb turn trips

Two ten of diamonds in the deck? If you have QTo, fold pre.

V1 probably has an overpair, and V2 could easily have a straight draw. I'd just shove the turn.
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Old 06-08-2013, 08:49 PM   #3
Zidane Valor
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Re: 1-2 q10 s otb turn trips

I disagree with raising the turn. On the button, if the two villains have shown the entire hand that they were willing to bet and call, just let them keep doing it. Then on the river when you make your move, there is much more in the pot and gives the villains better odds to call an all-in shove.

Why would you scare the villains off on the turn?

I would just shove here. You have to "call the 30", then you have 120 behind [200 - (10+15+25+30)]. So the villains are calling 120 into a pot of 360 [210 + 30 + 120]. That's 3:1 odds.
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Old 06-08-2013, 09:08 PM   #4
pokerbrah
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Re: 1-2 q10 s otb turn trips

I misremembered bro


turn brought another flush draw non diamond
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Old 06-09-2013, 12:03 AM   #5
deerpathdave
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Re: 1-2 q10 s otb turn trips

You have to seriously consider that you may be behind. V1 could be just continuation betting on the flop. V2 would have QJ, 10 9 or K10, A10, 99, 55, or 78 at this point.

On the turn, V1 has got to be worried that he got two callers and just paired up the top pair on the board. If he has an over pair here, he really should be check folding, so by leading off, you really got to put him on a much better hand. Either A10, K10, QJ, 10 9, 99 or 55 at this point. Then V2 calls again. Hard to believe that both of them are on draws, so I figure either V1 or v2 has either a full house at this point (99, 9 10, 55) or at least the other 10.

I'm just checking this one down. Not interested in raising here and finding out i'm way behind and drawing dead.
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Old 06-09-2013, 12:21 AM   #6
Zidane Valor
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Re: 1-2 q10 s otb turn trips

I'm pretty confident V2 doesn't have a ten or a full house. He just called on the river. He has no reason to think the hero will raise (or even call) the river for him.

V1 COULD have a better ten or a full house. The question you have to ask is whether the $30 bet on the river is a suck bet or a blocking bet. The pot is $150 after the turn and V1 bets $30. He's giving both V2 and the hero 5:1 odds to call. The hero actually has 6:1 odds to call after V2 calls. I think folding for the hero is out of the question at 6:1.

I could be persuaded in flat-calling the river, but I don't think so. The cards are pretty low on this board and V1 raised pre-flop UTG+1. The only hands I could see doing this that currently beat the hero are ATs or 99. I don't think V1 would raise UTG+1 with 55. This is a betting line from V1 that screams overpair.
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Old 06-09-2013, 12:58 AM   #7
deerpathdave
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Re: 1-2 q10 s otb turn trips

Alot of 1/2 players have no clue about proper bet sizing. Against an unknown opp, I really don't know where I am at here on the river and would probably just call. A worse hand should not call you here, while a better hand would.

The turn is the key point here where you need to inject a bid. V1 bet $25 into a $75 pot and got called by V2, so now the pot is at $125 going to you. I am thinking raise to $75 here. This does a few things:
- Gives a bad price to any draw to see the river.
- Gives the better hand a chance to 3 bet you. You can safely fold if that happens.
- Makes it likely they will check to you on the river. You can safely value bet them or check down depending on your read on their turn play.
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Old 06-09-2013, 01:14 AM   #8
Zidane Valor
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Re: 1-2 q10 s otb turn trips

I hate raising the turn here, especially if you're going to fold to a shove, for several reasons.

1) There's no draws out there. What are we afraid of? JT? 87? That's really it. I'm not afraid of the diamond draw since it would be of the backdoor variety.

2) If I raise to $75 ($50 more into a $150 pot), I'm not folding to a shove anyway. At that point, I would have to call $100 into a pot of $300. Unless the villain raised pre-flop UTG+1 with 99 or AT, we're well ahead in this hand.

3) Like I said before, on a "dry" board like this with the only hands I'm worried about being exactly JT or exactly 87 (I'm paying off AT or 99 anyway), I'm not taking the lead out of the villain's hands. I don't want the villain to check the river; I want the villain to bet the river. The villain has bet all three streets AND brought in a caller with him. I'm not disrupting that by raising the turn unnecessarily.

This isn't a situation where I'm hoping to "trap". The villains are already doing all of the work for me. There's no reason to disturb them. Just let them keep putting money in the pot without interrupting them.
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Old 06-09-2013, 03:39 AM   #9
patchohare
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Re: 1-2 q10 s otb turn trips

A turn raise isn't bad here because of the board texture. You get called by multiple draws and some over pairs. An utg raiser bet in to two players twice on a T high board, he's weighted toward over pairs and two overs that picked up a flush draw.

The other villain has just called twice. I think the turn is a clear value raise as your getting called by worse a ton. Waiting till the river to raise once the board bricked and UTG's blocking bet was already called is clearly leaving a ton of value on the table.

That being said, not raising the river would be criminal.
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Old 06-09-2013, 03:51 AM   #10
patchohare
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Re: 1-2 q10 s otb turn trips

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zidane Valor View Post
I hate raising the turn here, especially if you're going to fold to a shove, for several reasons.

1) There's no draws out there. What are we afraid of? JT? 87? That's really it. I'm not afraid of the diamond draw since it would be of the backdoor variety.

2) If I raise to $75 ($50 more into a $150 pot), I'm not folding to a shove anyway. At that point, I would have to call $100 into a pot of $300. Unless the villain raised pre-flop UTG+1 with 99 or AT, we're well ahead in this hand.

3) Like I said before, on a "dry" board like this with the only hands I'm worried about being exactly JT or exactly 87 (I'm paying off AT or 99 anyway), I'm not taking the lead out of the villain's hands. I don't want the villain to check the river; I want the villain to bet the river. The villain has bet all three streets AND brought in a caller with him. I'm not disrupting that by raising the turn unnecessarily.

This isn't a situation where I'm hoping to "trap". The villains are already doing all of the work for me. There's no reason to disturb them. Just let them keep putting money in the pot without interrupting them.
this post is wretched.

1. Yes there are plenty of draws out there. QJ, 78, J8, KQ, KJ any and all flush draws.

2. Why is anyone folding to a shove? Yes there could be action that would make it a raise/ fold, but I'm almost never folding after raising.

3. "Not taking the lead out of villains hands?" He's betting miniscule amounts on every street. Get some money in the pot. It's hard to make hands. When you do, taking call down lines when a villain is basically throwing out blocking bets seems to be about the worst value line you can take.

If you want to win a big pot money has to go in the middle, waiting till the river certainly doesn't accomplish that. No ones "doing your work for you." It's standard passive poker.

raise the turn. Villains never fold over pairs or big draws. What makes up most of their ranges here?
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