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Old 08-20-2015, 02:10 AM   #1
6betfold
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1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

V in the hand is a huge chatty semi-drunk fish who raises to $6-$10 almost every hand, cbets often with air, doesn't bluff river when he misses and overvalues some hands. I've also seen him slow play and ace high flush in position and min raise it on the river. He's also been in a fish war with another guy where he's hero called him down with bottom pair and ace high for huge pots and been good. Hero has a tight winning image tho.

OTTH

2 lp limps, V limps on BTN, Hero completes SB with Q4cc

Flop (~8): 357ccc
Hero bets $10, V raises to $25, Hero ??

They often say we shouldn't go broke in limped pots without the nuts. Is this a spot to just call him down? He definitely has something.
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Old 08-20-2015, 03:03 AM   #2
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

I can't consider folding w/o multiple streets of aggression with this hand add to that v has been observed betting air otf let's see a turn for 15 more into 43.
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Old 08-20-2015, 03:21 AM   #3
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

Of course I'm not folding to this guy, it's more between call and reraise.
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Old 08-20-2015, 03:58 AM   #4
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

RR and GII. If you don't think he mixes it up there's no reason to think you're beat ever. You're blocking some straights + SDs, but he could be raising with tons of combos that you are crushing.
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Old 08-20-2015, 04:15 AM   #5
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

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Originally Posted by 6betfold View Post
I've also seen him slow play and ace high flush in position and min raise it on the river.
Here is your answer right here.
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Old 08-20-2015, 04:55 AM   #6
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

Call flop. Ck turn - his range that would call a flop bet/3b line from you = his bet turn range when you call flop and ck turn - let him keep initiative and he probably bets 60-110 on almost any turn card, so just Ck-r (or shove if you want, over bet fine vs this guy) all non club turns (3-5-7 too) OR Ck-c turn club and ck most rivers Just not folding to this guy and more value in bet/call, ck turn --- not worried about the RIO implications against this V whatsoever even at 250BB.

Last edited by Amanaplan; 08-20-2015 at 05:18 AM.
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Old 08-20-2015, 05:17 AM   #7
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

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Originally Posted by Burnit3x View Post
RR and GII. If you don't think he mixes it up there's no reason to think you're beat ever. You're blocking some straights + SDs, but he could be raising with tons of combos that you are crushing.
These are reasons for calling not raising - he's not 4! often enough to gii here either. When he calls flop he can easily fold turns to our aggression.

Plus anything that he might 4! On the flop will realize equity when we play this way and that range is much worse for us than if we took a less aggro line
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Old 08-20-2015, 08:37 AM   #8
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

shoving flop on a someone who's calling with hands that you're running 65/35 against at best is a little out of line 250bb deep.

call flop
eval turn. play some poker.
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Old 08-20-2015, 08:49 AM   #9
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

Call flop. Plan on calling down. V has flopped straights, two pairs, maybe some sets, pair plus flush draws, worse flopped flushes, and some flopped better flushes. You're just paying off his nut and second nut flushes.

I don't see a ton of value in 3b/gii because your hand will be so face up
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Old 08-20-2015, 10:05 AM   #10
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

I recommend a fold pre-flop. I know it's only a buck, and the implied odds are there, but you get into so many mucky situations with this hand it's ridiculous. This hand is a perfect example. We're actually feeling cautious when we hit a top 1% flop for our hand.

As played. Go broke however you can. If this guy is as spew-tardy as described, then you need to start snowplowing chips into the pot.

First clue: He didn't raise pre-flop. That's either a monster overpair, or a weakish drawing hand like SC's, 2 gappers, etc. Based on description, I'd expect a button raise from any pair, any decent ace, many playable kings. That severely discounts the number of better flushes, and sets in his range. We have everything else clobbered.

Looks to me like his most likely holding is another flush, or a made straight. Or a nut draw that is going to find a call no matter how obviously beat he is.
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Old 08-20-2015, 10:17 AM   #11
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

I would go broke here, against this villain.
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Old 08-20-2015, 10:45 AM   #12
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

Agree w/ folding SB, but I know most people call.

As played, I call and let him hand himself. I don't think he's calling a raise on the flop w/o a very big hand. However, maybe a very big hand to him is AhXx. I still call, though, to keep him in.
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Old 08-20-2015, 11:16 AM   #13
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

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Agree w/ folding SB, but I know most people call.

As played, I call and let him hand himself. I don't think he's calling a raise on the flop w/o a very big hand. However, maybe a very big hand to him is AhXx. I still call, though, to keep him in.
And then what? Are you going to check the turn and let him hang himself? That risks losing too much value if it's checked through.

If you're going to lead the turn for value, then you definitely need to raise here. Making the pot bigger on the flop makes your value bet on the turn bigger. A bigger bet on the turn makes a value bet on the river even bigger. Bigger value bets = more profit. We're probably not winning stacks if we go to the turn with only $60 in the pot and 470 left to play.

Letting this guy see free cards with a set or higher flush draw would be suicide
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Old 08-20-2015, 11:36 AM   #14
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

i like clicking it back for another 25 and see what he does.. I would think you're way ahead and he has something like 2p, a set, or more likely Ac,x.. There are only a couple combo's of KcXc and AcXc that have you beat at this point so you are way ahead of his range. I would try and bloat the pot otf since you are so far ahead, and re-evaluate ott based on whether its a blank or a scare card.
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Old 08-20-2015, 11:57 AM   #15
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

I don't mind a raise here if you are sure he has something and he will call with worse, but I hate the idea of getting re-raised -- unless he's bad enough to bluff against a tight, winning player or is willing to gamble w/ Ac. I guess if you are willing to gii, which OP is, go for it.

However, this guy slow-played the nuts before. Is he really calling a raise with worse than a big flush against a tight winning player who is out of position? Maybe you will get one call, but I think he's done on the turn unless he has you crushed.

I just think calling looks as if you are drawing and you might get more out of him later.

I'm fine with either (although I hate min-raises). I hope the turn is the 6c and he has the Ac.
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Old 08-20-2015, 12:10 PM   #16
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

It's important whether or not he has J2s,T2s,92s,82s,62s in his limping range on the button. If he folds those than I think he actually has more combos of flushes that beat us. Either way it is pretty close, would be much more willing to stack off here with a K high flush.

I still like a raise, hes not folding his worse flushes, hes not folding his sets and hes not folding the many AcXx combos he has.
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Old 08-20-2015, 12:22 PM   #17
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

It appears he might be druck, loose and whatever but your description says he knows the difference between Player A (min rasise River) and Player B (Ace high zipper check). That being said he is going to run for the weeds without the A high flush draw or a better hand (set also) if you re-raise right here. You can swing out of your shoes here and hope or just collect a mini-pot and wait for the 'next' spot against this guy.

Call the bet, make sure the 4th flush doesn't hit and bet reasonable again ... like you have an over pair, not 3rd nuts. Sure any board pairing card will slow things down too ... but like you said, limped pot.

I don't see this guy playing big with you as described (yes, in a limped pot as well) so you need to go the value route and be ready to adjust. He may see right through your bets and raise again on the Turn ... that would be gut check time.

A long pause with a call has more merrit than any other move here IMO. GL
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Old 08-20-2015, 04:24 PM   #18
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

Hero chose the less variance route and opted to call flop.

Turn ($60): 9h
Hero checks, V bets $35, Hero called again

River ($130): Jd
Hero checks, V quickly checks and shows Kc7d!

Says "I had a fantastic hand there thought I was good, TP and flush draw"

In short, a complete drooler that I lost so much value against.
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Old 08-20-2015, 04:53 PM   #19
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

3-bet the flop vs. this guy, we want to get max value and there are a ton of worse hands that he's never folding.
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Old 08-20-2015, 08:07 PM   #20
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

Three bet preflop.
If he raises, try to get a live read.
If he calls, bet turn, bet river, unless a club hits or board pairs. Get value. V can have a ton of hands here including dry A or K, pair, pair and draw, set, two pair, and more.
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Old 08-21-2015, 02:28 AM   #21
Burnit3x
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
These are reasons for calling not raising - he's not 4! often enough to gii here either. When he calls flop he can easily fold turns to our aggression.

Plus anything that he might 4! On the flop will realize equity when we play this way and that range is much worse for us than if we took a less aggro line
I think this player has a lot Ac or Kc in his c/r range on this board and will call a 4bet. If he doesn't have higher clubs, I want to get as much money in as possible in case a 4th club does comes out. Third, a 4 bet gives him the opportunity to spaz 5bet all in while we still have the best hand. Finally, the bigger we build this pot, the harder he will find it to let go of a hand we beat.

I think calling is acting way too passive/sneaky/fancy against a player you don't need to do that with.
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Old 08-21-2015, 09:00 PM   #22
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

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Originally Posted by 6betfold View Post
Hero chose the less variance route and opted to call flop.

Turn ($60): 9h
Hero checks, V bets $35, Hero called again

River ($130): Jd
Hero checks, V quickly checks and shows Kc7d!

Says "I had a fantastic hand there thought I was good, TP and flush draw"

In short, a complete drooler that I lost so much value against.

calling flop is fine. He would of just folded if you raised.

Raising turn is good but you didn't lose value. Even idiots would fold his hand.

The only hands you get value from are other flopped flushes/sets/straights or Ac. This guy would probably not go broke for $500 with a pair + 2nd nut flush draw.

I think check / raising turn is best play though.
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Old 08-21-2015, 09:39 PM   #23
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

I think the bigger moral of this thread is FOLD YOUR SB.
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Old 08-21-2015, 10:08 PM   #24
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

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I think the bigger moral of this thread is FOLD YOUR SB.
oh for sure. That was ******ed to complete
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Old 08-21-2015, 10:48 PM   #25
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Re: 1/2 Q-high flush facing flop raise $500 deep

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Originally Posted by Buster65 View Post
Here is your answer right here.
+1
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