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Old 08-21-2015, 09:49 PM   #1
calmasahinducow
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1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

Stacks:
Villain (350)
Hero (550)

I've just started playing poker again and this is the first hand I have posted in years.

Villain is a bad LAG. When I sat down he had over 800 and he has donked it away in various ways like all bad LAGs do. We have some history where he minraised turn on me twice and I folded both times. In another hand I checkraised him on an 894 flop and he folded.

He raises to 12 from UTG. This is a sign of strength from him because like all bad LAGs at 1/2 he limps with a bunch of crap.

Two bad old guys call in MP and LP.

I look down at black Kings in the BB and make it 52 to go. Villain calls pretty quickly, other fish fold.

Pot is 122 after the rake.

Flop is QQ4

Do I bet? How much?
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Old 08-21-2015, 10:02 PM   #2
Dutchstreetfish
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Re: 1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

Bet $70-100. Sounds like LAG has a pocket pair and you're way ahead. It's possible he has AQ or KQ and if you face resistance you can consider a bet fold but I'd expect V to pay you off with hands like 88-JJ so get value.
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Old 08-21-2015, 11:36 PM   #3
calmasahinducow
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Re: 1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

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Originally Posted by Dutchstreetfish View Post
Bet $70-100. Sounds like LAG has a pocket pair and you're way ahead. It's possible he has AQ or KQ and if you face resistance you can consider a bet fold but I'd expect V to pay you off with hands like 88-JJ so get value.
He doesn't have 88, 99, TT, or KQ. There's no way this particular villain raises those hands UTG. What 1/2 game are you playing where people routinely raise those UTG? I would say his range for an UTG raise is probably AA, AK, KK, QQ, JJ and AQ. Obviously we can discount combos of AK, KK, QQ, and AQ which leaves AA and JJ.

Another relevant hand I neglected to mention. I raised in LP with A7c, flop came with two clubs, I bet, he called. Turn was a club completing a straight draw, I bet he called. River was another card making a 4 straight on the board, I bet, he called and didn't show.

In retrospect maybe I mischaracterized him as a LAG. He's probably LAV, loose average.
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Old 08-22-2015, 01:53 AM   #4
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Re: 1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

Normally, I would like to make a come play with me bet, $50 - 75 and see what happens. What you now are describing V as and are giving V for range you are either way ahead or way behind.

Feel like gambling a little? Throw out a pot sized bet and see what happens. You should have a better idea of where you are at. This feels like the most effective and cheapest way to go. I feel a smaller bet, and you will be at the turn in the same situation.
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Old 08-22-2015, 01:55 AM   #5
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Re: 1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

Well I'm not folding at any point with KK in a 3b pot and SPR of 3 vs described V, so I just bet/bet/shove. $55/90/shove
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Old 08-22-2015, 08:13 AM   #6
Dutchstreetfish
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Re: 1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

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Originally Posted by calmasahinducow View Post
He doesn't have 88, 99, TT, or KQ. There's no way this particular villain raises those hands UTG. What 1/2 game are you playing where people routinely raise those UTG? I would say his range for an UTG raise is probably AA, AK, KK, QQ, JJ and AQ. Obviously we can discount combos of AK, KK, QQ, and AQ which leaves AA and JJ.

Another relevant hand I neglected to mention. I raised in LP with A7c, flop came with two clubs, I bet, he called. Turn was a club completing a straight draw, I bet he called. River was another card making a 4 straight on the board, I bet, he called and didn't show.

In retrospect maybe I mischaracterized him as a LAG. He's probably LAV, loose average.
I've been in a lot of games where LAGs raise every pair UTG, as well as all Broadway cards, suited or unsuited, and most suited connectors. Loose and aggressive being key characteristics. If a LAG opens w a small pair, he'll often call a raise and see a flop with most hands and raise with big hands. So I don't put him on AA, KK or AK bc LAGs love to three bet and raise those every time to get value from the image.

So if he's loose average, I still give him a wider range than just JJ+, AK, AQ.

If you're cautious, bet $60 and likely take it down. If he calls, slow down.
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Old 08-22-2015, 09:47 AM   #7
calmasahinducow
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Re: 1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

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Originally Posted by Dutchstreetfish View Post
I've been in a lot of games where LAGs raise every pair UTG, as well as all Broadway cards, suited or unsuited, and most suited connectors. Loose and aggressive being key characteristics. If a LAG opens w a small pair, he'll often call a raise and see a flop with most hands and raise with big hands. So I don't put him on AA, KK or AK bc LAGs love to three bet and raise those every time to get value from the image.

So if he's loose average, I still give him a wider range than just JJ+, AK, AQ.

If you're cautious, bet $60 and likely take it down. If he calls, slow down.
Fair enough.

I bet $35, trying to induce a raise. The villain quickly called.

Turn is A

Now what?
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Old 08-22-2015, 10:06 AM   #8
Mat the Gambler
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Re: 1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

Terrible turn card. Now I think you check, and hopefully you have some kind of read on villain when he bets to know whether he's bluffing JJ-88 or if he has it.
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Old 08-22-2015, 10:06 AM   #9
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Re: 1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

I don't think you know what LAG means. In many hands you describe, villain is checking and calling. Not very AG to me.

If he's truly LAG, then, as a rule, you should check and call with all of your good hands, making big raises for value at the end of hands, not at the beginning.

Against a guy who's just bad, bet/fold
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Old 08-22-2015, 10:07 AM   #10
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Re: 1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

Now is time for tears.
I think the flop bet is too small but it's probably big enough that he would have folded most of his misses. Check/fold feels weak, so probably bet/fold, something like $50.
If V floated the flop with a hand like JJ, now he'll believe you have AK or a queen and probably fold. If he calls again, tough to think KK can be good.
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Old 08-22-2015, 10:44 AM   #11
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Re: 1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

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Originally Posted by Dutchstreetfish View Post
Now is time for tears.
I think the flop bet is too small but it's probably big enough that he would have folded most of his misses. Check/fold feels weak, so probably bet/fold, something like $50.
If V floated the flop with a hand like JJ, now he'll believe you have AK or a queen and probably fold. If he calls again, tough to think KK can be good.
I agree with everything except that the flop bet is big enough for him to fold most misses. I bet $35 into a pot of 122 with the hope that he would try to bluff at it, or alternatively he would call with some potential garbage hands that were drawing to three outs or less. Unfortunately the turn is awful for me.

So now the pot is 192 and I bet 65 to fold out anything worse than an A. He calls again. River is some low card, maybe a 5. Check/fold?
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Old 08-22-2015, 11:59 AM   #12
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Re: 1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

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Originally Posted by calmasahinducow View Post
He doesn't have 88, 99, TT, or KQ. There's no way this particular villain raises those hands UTG. What 1/2 game are you playing where people routinely raise those UTG?

In retrospect maybe I mischaracterized him as a LAG. He's probably LAV, loose average.
In the games I play "bad LAGs" (as well as many TAGs) would raise all of those hands. Maybe you shouldn't be getting sarcastic with posters when you are the one who gave unhelpful reads.
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Old 08-22-2015, 02:39 PM   #13
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Re: 1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

I raise all my pocket pairs UTG 77+

There is no way i'm limping in with them. I may limp in or fold pre 22 - 66 but I think it's crazy you think his range is that tight.

So he limps in 88 but raises AQ? sounds about right......
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Old 08-22-2015, 02:44 PM   #14
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Re: 1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

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Originally Posted by calmasahinducow View Post
I agree with everything except that the flop bet is big enough for him to fold most misses. I bet $35 into a pot of 122 with the hope that he would try to bluff at it, or alternatively he would call with some potential garbage hands that were drawing to three outs or less. Unfortunately the turn is awful for me.

So now the pot is 192 and I bet 65 to fold out anything worse than an A. He calls again. River is some low card, maybe a 5. Check/fold?
The only hand you can beat is a bluff so I think check fold is the only option now. If he bets stupid small, maybe you curiosity call. If it goes check/check, you might be good. But he's calling any bet you make with any Q or A, and probably folding everything else, so not much point in betting unless you feel strongly that he will bluff you off your hand if you check. Check/evaluate, but really, check/fold.
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Old 08-22-2015, 04:31 PM   #15
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Re: 1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

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I raise all my pocket pairs UTG 77+

There is no way i'm limping in with them. I may limp in or fold pre 22 - 66 but I think it's crazy you think his range is that tight.

So he limps in 88 but raises AQ? sounds about right......
Later on he limped TT UTG, flopped quads, checked the flop, checked the turn, and open pushed 500 into a $20 dollar pot on the river.
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Old 08-22-2015, 06:32 PM   #16
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Re: 1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

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Originally Posted by calmasahinducow View Post
I agree with everything except that the flop bet is big enough for him to fold most misses. I bet $35 into a pot of 122 with the hope that he would try to bluff at it, or alternatively he would call with some potential garbage hands that were drawing to three outs or less. Unfortunately the turn is awful for me.

So now the pot is 192 and I bet 65 to fold out anything worse than an A. He calls again. River is some low card, maybe a 5. Check/fold?
You need to read Sklansky's list of reasons to bet.
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Old 08-22-2015, 06:46 PM   #17
blaxleypoker
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Re: 1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

I think you need to bet larger on the flop like 65? if he folds then so be it. You can't let turn cards like that come in. It is a unlucky turn and buts you in a really crap situation. UTG he could well have A10+ at 88+
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Old 08-22-2015, 06:56 PM   #18
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Re: 1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

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Originally Posted by calmasahinducow View Post
He doesn't have 88, 99, TT, or KQ. There's no way this particular villain raises those hands UTG. What 1/2 game are you playing where people routinely raise those UTG? I would say his range for an UTG raise is probably AA, AK, KK, QQ, JJ and AQ. Obviously we can discount combos of AK, KK, QQ, and AQ which leaves AA and JJ.
Discount doesn't mean eliminate. AQ discounted still has more combos (8) than JJ (6).

You beat 14 combos and lose to 15, if you're really up against a raiser that tight, you should call preflop instead of 3-betting and check-fold any flop with an ace.

Obviously, according to your reads, you now lose to everything on the turn so check-fold.

Your reads are way off by the way so if you really want useful advice, rerange him and post a more reasonable range.
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Old 08-22-2015, 07:25 PM   #19
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Re: 1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

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Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
Your reads are way off by the way so if you really want useful advice, rerange him and post a more reasonable range.
This. The way you describe V he is not a LAG at all. Definitely bet larger on the flop. With the range you're assuming he has river should probably be check/fold.

Also if the only hands calling your turn bet are ones with an A or Q in them you should probably be checking and evaluating his action, you cannot bet for value OOP if V is folding everything worse than your hand.
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Old 08-22-2015, 10:22 PM   #20
calmasahinducow
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Re: 1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

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Originally Posted by DeadMoneyWalking View Post
You need to read Sklansky's list of reasons to bet.
This is a good post and where I messed up. What is your line on the turn?
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Old 08-22-2015, 10:28 PM   #21
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Re: 1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

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Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
Discount doesn't mean eliminate. AQ discounted still has more combos (8) than JJ (6).

You beat 14 combos and lose to 15, if you're really up against a raiser that tight, you should call preflop instead of 3-betting and check-fold any flop with an ace.

Obviously, according to your reads, you now lose to everything on the turn so check-fold.

Your reads are way off by the way so if you really want useful advice, rerange him and post a more reasonable range.
This is also a good post. Maybe you are right and I should have just called preflop. How do you play the flop?
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Old 08-22-2015, 11:47 PM   #22
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Re: 1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

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This is a good post and where I messed up. What is your line on the turn?
You do the same thing you'd do with monster hands in this spot like AQ. Since you bet oddly small otf you can bet smallish and assume he'll play the river honestly. Something like a bet of 65 and fold to further action.

Checking does not allow you to read his hand. If he really is LAG then he is betting his 99 type hands on the turn. So while there is no really good answer, betting is less bad.
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Old 08-23-2015, 12:44 AM   #23
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Re: 1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

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Originally Posted by DeadMoneyWalking View Post
You need to read Sklansky's list of reasons to bet.
Yes why would you want someone with a worse hand to fold.
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Old 08-23-2015, 11:39 AM   #24
calmasahinducow
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Re: 1/2 - Pocket Kings against a bad LAG

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Originally Posted by DeadMoneyWalking View Post
You do the same thing you'd do with monster hands in this spot like AQ. Since you bet oddly small otf you can bet smallish and assume he'll play the river honestly. Something like a bet of 65 and fold to further action.

Checking does not allow you to read his hand. If he really is LAG then he is betting his 99 type hands on the turn. So while there is no really good answer, betting is less bad.
I agree. Also to clarify, I bet the turn expecting worse hands than an A to fold, not WANTING them to.

River went check/check and villain scooped with AKo.
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