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1/2 PAHWM QJs 1/2 PAHWM QJs

08-05-2019 , 09:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DooDooPoker
Can we see how this is not a good way to construct our ranges?
What does this mean?
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08-05-2019 , 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsevenoff
What does this mean?
It means if you just call this river. And you always bet your boats OTT. You never have a river raising range on a bet/x/decide line.

Which means you never have any bluffs OTR. Or it means your river raises are always bluffs. Either way - our range is not even close to optimal.

Now if this guy is just some fish and you just want to play your hand, that's cool. Just something to keep in mind.
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08-05-2019 , 09:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DooDooPoker
It means if you just call this river. And you always bet your boats OTT. You never have a river raising range on a bet/x/decide line.

Which means you never have any bluffs OTR. Or it means your river raises are always bluffs. Either way - our range is not even close to optimal.

Now if this guy is just some fish and you just want to play your hand, that's cool. Just something to keep in mind.
Ah yes I get it, thanks, for some reason the sequence of the post threw me off.

I completely agree with your statement, but unfortunately a lot of 1/2 is not playing actually good theoreoretical hold em. This is unfortunate for someone trying to get good at hold em and move up.
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08-05-2019 , 11:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbirdx24
@QuadJ, Extrascratch: You are giving reasons why checking is better than betting. That might be true, but that's a big diff from bet 90% check 10%.

It seems to me like you're equating "I'm like 90% sure betting is better than checking, so I'm going to bet 90% and check 10%". But this isn't true. Against this villain, if you're 90% sure betting is better than checking, than you bet 100% of the time. You never check.


As played, this is the dream river. You have an opportunity to get max value from a super aggro fish. Get max value. $300.
I think you’re maybe over analyzing what I’m writing.
I understand the obvious reasons for obvious flop bet as it’s obvious obviously.
I am stating some pros for the odd check, as I don’t think it’s terrible against this specific V. I wouldn’t particularly care what I did, but I would bet more often than I check. I thought that was pretty simply originally stated obvious obviously.
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08-05-2019 , 11:58 PM
And of course this river is a raise.
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08-06-2019 , 12:00 AM
It almost doesn’t matter to me how earlier streets played out on this river. A donk bet must be raised here OTR. But 10-8 is definitely in this V’s range.
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08-06-2019 , 08:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsevenoff
I honestly thought the turn would be the least interesting street to analyze...I really thought the concencus would be standard check.

Even though we pick up an OESFD, we are up against a fish with not much of a fold button. On top of that, he has more Tx in his range, and he's definitely not folding 2p now. I think this is actually a bad card.

Anyways, hero checks back.


River ($85): 8. Villain bets $60. Hero?
Hero raises to $180 and villain instantly moves in for $460 total. Hero?
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08-06-2019 , 09:17 AM
I would let it go now.
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08-06-2019 , 01:54 PM
I probably fold river when villain shoves. Hero's hand is likely strong then villain expect and villain may be shoving lower straights for value. Villain may also have some bluffs. But villain also has boats in his range given the way the hand played out. Against a very aggro fishy villain a lot is counting how many bluffs you give villain and I can see calling sometimes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbirdx24
It seems to me like you're equating "I'm like 90% sure betting is better than checking, so I'm going to bet 90% and check 10%". But this isn't true. Against this villain, if you're 90% sure betting is better than checking, than you bet 100% of the time. You never check.
Two reasons for having a mix of actions here.

The first is having a little balance. This isn't because of meta-game manipulating villain balance because a fishy villain probably isn't thinking about hero's range much at all. Rather it's controlling hero's range so hero has more hands that can play back at a super aggro villain when raised.

The second is that I'm not close to 90% confident which is better. Hero can't see villain's hand or read villain's mind. In a situation where there are two options that seem about equally good might as well pick between them at random.
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08-06-2019 , 06:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsevenoff
Hero raises to $180 and villain instantly moves in for $460 total. Hero?
Hero ended up calling and villain proudly flipped over KT. I called for the reason that villain is a fish and overvalues hands, but this hand really got me thinking and that's why I posted it...This can't be a profitable call. I suck at making big folds, and I do believe I would've made it vs even a mildly competent opponent, but honestly feel like we should probably still be folding here. I almost wish he turned over a boat, because I fear making this call will be bad for my mental game going forward. Especially for someone planning to start playing 2/5, I need to do a better job folding and stop being such a station.
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08-06-2019 , 09:16 PM
You cannot fold river vs someone who can overvalue hands, he has worse hands for value like A10 and apparently K10, and you chop w/ QJ, and you beat 76s..... It might be close vs a regular. General rule of thumb imo is to never fold the top of your range when your opponent could be value betting/value shoving worse, and not especially when your range is extremely capped. You’re basically only calling TT otr

Last edited by Minatorr; 08-06-2019 at 09:21 PM.
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08-06-2019 , 09:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsevenoff
Hero ended up calling and villain proudly flipped over KT. I called for the reason that villain is a fish and overvalues hands, but this hand really got me thinking and that's why I posted it...This can't be a profitable call. I suck at making big folds, and I do believe I would've made it vs even a mildly competent opponent, but honestly feel like we should probably still be folding here. I almost wish he turned over a boat, because I fear making this call will be bad for my mental game going forward. Especially for someone planning to start playing 2/5, I need to do a better job folding and stop being such a station.
The very fact that you have posted this and have analyzed your line self-critically and objectively is fantastic and shows you’re ready to move up. Good luck and well played.
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