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Old 01-13-2018, 02:02 PM   #1
Joey913
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1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

Situation: At this table for a while and there are a couple of nits and 3-4 looser splashier players who raising to $7 - $10 pre with more marginal hands, like KTs from middle position, in addition to V.

V ($550): 40ish WG. Orginially from Europe and has a slight accident. Very solid LAG and probably the best player I have played with in this relatively small poker room. Really good at thin value betting, bluffing with scare cards, and even making biggish folds when he needs to. Good hand reader. Very likely he posts on 2+2. He is very cocky (and I guess has some reason to be) and to the extent he has a weakness I would say if he has a hand he likes to play pre-flop and has position then he seems to call a bit too loosely, confident he can outplay his opponents post-flop. Very comfortable getting to later streets and making big bets with or without the goods.

Hero ($400): 30ish WG. I have some history with V and he probably views me as a TAG, capable of making a move once in a while, but mostly unimaginative. He probably thinks I am a little bit better than the average fish around, but still views himself as a much better player. He knows I can bet/fold and he has had my number in the past.

We played the following hand earlier. V raised from MP to $10, SB calls, I call from BB w/ AQ, Another limper calls. Flop ($40) comes 994, checks to V who bets $10, Hero is only caller. Turn ($60) is Q. I check, V bets $20, I call. River ($100) is 2. I check, V bets $65, I tank call and he shows K9s.

OTTH... Haven't limped/raised Aces in a few years but given table dyanamic, thought it was worth a shot. Hero limps black aces UTG, only 1 other limper , V makes it $10, SB calls, I make it $45. Only V calls. This is not what I had hoped for at all. I was hoping one of the looser/splashier/shorter stacked players was going to raise, get a few callers, I re-raise and get it heads up with a lot of dead money in the pot... Instead I'm heads up OOP against a really solid LAG and he probably ranges me as 85% - 90% of the time with AA/KK/AK, the other 10% to 15% making a move.

Flop ($100): AQ5 Hero??

What should my plan be? As I mentioned, I think V is still very wide here as he his very confident in his post-flop play and since we are moderately deep he still felt comfortable calling the limp/reraise with a lot of his range.

Since V is likely ranging me with AA/KK/AK (tight range!) and we have some history, my plan was to try to play my hand the way V thinks I would play KK to give him the opportunity to bluff/value own himself. Thoughts? I expect to hear some accusations of FPS, but honestly against almost anyone else I wouldn't thinking this way.
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Old 01-13-2018, 02:15 PM   #2
thin_slicing
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Re: 1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

I'm leading this flop. Probably $60. Checking and letting a free card hit with all the possible gut shots would be a bad idea IMO.


EDIT: I am hoping he floats and if a card that isn't a H or another face card I'm checking and hoping he puts me on a hand like KK and takes a stab at it.
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Old 01-13-2018, 02:17 PM   #3
Javanewt
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Re: 1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

Pre is fine, although I don't like this play it seems to be more popular lately. I think it's OK if you do it with hands other than AA/KK, but whatever.

On flop, just bet half pot to 3/4 pot. Checking is bad unless you are 100% sure he will bet. If you do check, it's obviously a check/raise. Personally, I just bet.
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Old 01-13-2018, 02:45 PM   #4
johnnyBuz
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Re: 1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

What position is villain? I really don’t like this if he is in LP and nobody else is raising many hands preflop. If he was like UTG+1 okay now it’s a better situation but 95/100 I’m just opening this pre.

Bet the flop - $50-60. Let him make a play or force him to pay to see the turn. If he’s wide as you say he’s going to have a difficult time folding to a moderate bet when he can try to rep hearts later.
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Old 01-13-2018, 02:56 PM   #5
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1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

Bet on the flop.

Unfortunately for money making purposes, your range is going to smash this so disguising anything seems unlikely. Checking doesn't do anything but give V a free card because he shouldn't be betting from description.

Fortunately, you have have the nuts and a V who likes to bluff. Only folding the worst of the worst runouts, which is basically only running paint hearts imo

If we bet 3 streets, something like 50/100/200 gets all the money in easily
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:46 PM   #6
setintostraight
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Re: 1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

Charge the heart draw to the tune of $55-65. I think that's the only thing he can rep here.

Quote:
Hero limps black aces UTG, only 1 other limper , V makes it $10, SB calls, I make it $45. Only V calls. This is not what I had hoped for at all.
That is the NUT WIN result for a limp/rr strategy - you went heads up on the flop with a good-sized 3! and the best hand in poker. If that's not what you hoped for, never do it again and just open raise.
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Old 01-13-2018, 04:08 PM   #7
Joey913
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Re: 1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

Quote:
Originally Posted by setintostraight View Post
That is the NUT WIN result for a limp/rr strategy - you went heads up on the flop with a good-sized 3! and the best hand in poker. If that's not what you hoped for, never do it again and just open raise.
You're ignoring Villain description and stack sizes. As in OP, "NUT WIN" would have been heads up against one of the looser/splashier fish with much shorter stacks, against whom I could easily commit post flop w/ an overpair.

As played, when I flop top set, I suppose it does become "NUT WIN."
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Old 01-13-2018, 04:11 PM   #8
Joey913
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Re: 1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
What position is villain? I really don’t like this if he is in LP and nobody else is raising many hands preflop. If he was like UTG+1 okay now it’s a better situation but 95/100 I’m just opening this pre.
Villain is OTB. As in OP, I wasn't targeting Villain but rather the loose/splashier fish who were raising with marginal hands (they were in early/middle positions).
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Old 01-13-2018, 04:49 PM   #9
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Re: 1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey913 View Post
Villain is OTB. As in OP, I wasn't targeting Villain but rather the loose/splashier fish who were raising with marginal hands (they were in early/middle positions).
Why would you want to blow them out of the pot with a l/rr? These are the types of villains you can milk for 3 streets of value with a lone pair.
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Old 01-13-2018, 05:12 PM   #10
Joey913
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Re: 1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

I think we have enough consensus on a moderate flop bet so...

Flop ($100) AQ5 Hero bets $50. V Calls.

Turn ($200) AQ5 8 Hero??
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Old 01-13-2018, 05:15 PM   #11
AustinTrucker
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Re: 1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

How would you play KK? However, that is play it like that. You probably make a cbet with KK and if V calls check the turn unless you'd double barrell with KK. IDK, just seems like best way to get the money by getting V to try and steal it. I would have reraised more preflop to around $60 FWIW
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Old 01-13-2018, 05:56 PM   #12
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Re: 1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

johnny, et al, are correct. If you are targeting the loose shortie fish, just raise pre.

Now, bet turn at least half pot, but probably a bit more. Same as on flop. Don't let him draw cheap.
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Old 01-13-2018, 06:59 PM   #13
Cyo
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Re: 1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

Why not bomb flop bigger?

What's he calling with? That flop smashes what you should have, so why would he call anything? If he's calling, make him call big. I'm potting it on the flop because I think if he's got enough to call, he's calling.
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Old 01-13-2018, 07:05 PM   #14
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Re: 1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

Lead, we can still try to trap later streets, plus villain may make an ill-advised raise
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Old 01-13-2018, 07:54 PM   #15
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Re: 1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

I don't see the merit of betting small unless it's to induce. Your value targets are going to call a large sizing and his other hands will fold. Either he has a set or a flush draw/combo draw or he has a hand he will fold. I don't think there will be much in between. If you think he's going to bluff a lot then check raise otherwise just bet something like 75-100.
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Old 01-13-2018, 07:58 PM   #16
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Re: 1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

If I was V, and was trying to implement his playing style, I doubt that I would bet the turn if checked to as I'd expect you to be trapping more than half the time. Everyone has laid out the reasons why you'd bet the flop with AA already. Now that we've established my interest in the pot, you are trying to trap me.

If you are even close to good as a LAG, you know that most people try to trap you with monsters, figuring you will just automatically spew off your whole stack.

If you were making a play, I should be able to take it away on the river. I might be able to take it away if you have KK on the river, especially if it is a heart.

Also, there are several value hands that are paying us at least on the turn. AQ, broadway hearts, QQ, 55. If you do something like check raise, you are representing the nuts so strongly it would be possible (not easy but possible) to fold something like bottom set. He might also check these hands, or bet them small, targeting KK. (If I were him, I'd heavily discount AK because your PF 3bet was on the smaller side and you'd be less apt to trap post flop).

So anyway, if you check the turn, I'd expect V to check his draws and floats and occasionally his big hands.

If you really want to look like scared KK and give him room to spazz maybe bet $75. That way, you're also getting at least something if he does have hearts, possibly gutshots, and he still might spazz out.

How would you play this if you actually had KK? I don't think the answer needs to be the same, but that would be an interesting spot.
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Old 01-13-2018, 07:59 PM   #17
Joey913
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Re: 1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

Quote:
Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
Lead, we can still try to trap later streets, plus villain may make an ill-advised raise
I assume you are talking about the flop? We led flop $50. Turn is 8 (blank)... What are we doing now?
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Old 01-13-2018, 07:59 PM   #18
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Re: 1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

Bet turn.

C/c heart rivers. C/jam all other rivers.
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Old 01-13-2018, 08:01 PM   #19
Joey913
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Re: 1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyo View Post
Why not bomb flop bigger?

What's he calling with? That flop smashes what you should have, so why would he call anything? If he's calling, make him call big. I'm potting it on the flop because I think if he's got enough to call, he's calling.
Bombing flop bigger likely puts me at what V would view as pot-committed and would dissuade him from making a move.
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Old 01-14-2018, 02:41 PM   #20
thin_slicing
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Re: 1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyo View Post
Why not bomb flop bigger?

What's he calling with? That flop smashes what you should have, so why would he call anything? If he's calling, make him call big. I'm potting it on the flop because I think if he's got enough to call, he's calling.
We are trying to get the villain to make a mistake. If you bet closer to a pot size bet you make it easy for him to fold his wider range here.
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Old 01-14-2018, 02:44 PM   #21
thin_slicing
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Re: 1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey913 View Post
I think we have enough consensus on a moderate flop bet so...

Flop ($100) AQ5 Hero bets $50. V Calls.

Turn ($200) AQ5 8 Hero??
It's risky but I may check this turn. If a scare card hits the river you may have to C/C though.

If he does bet just jam.
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Old 01-14-2018, 03:50 PM   #22
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Re: 1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

Betting an A-high flop with KK is horrible for many reasons. Also what and when do you open limp UTG and why? You don't beat fish in general by cloning their play.

Last edited by WorldzMine; 01-14-2018 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 01-14-2018, 03:54 PM   #23
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Re: 1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

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Betting an A-high flop is horrible for many reasons.
Please name said reasons.
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Old 01-14-2018, 03:55 PM   #24
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Re: 1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

I like a bet of 125$-140$ on the turn. Also I think flop bet should have been bigger. Something like 65$-75$.
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Old 01-14-2018, 04:26 PM   #25
Joey913
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Re: 1/2 PAHWM: Need to Outlevel Solid LAG after I limp/reraise UTG and flop Set of Aces

So again on the turn situation is:

Turn ($200): AQ58...

So most of the posts advocating betting the turn (Javanewt, BackdoorFlush, NutJob) haven't given their reasons and I genuinely want to understand. I know my OP was a bit lengthy but did you read it all? To me, this seems like great advice for 95% of our opponents and the standard way to play the hand. But V is much wider here than most villains and is willing to fire big barrels on later streets with or without the goods.

By betting the turn, I pretty much pot commit myself in V's eyes and allow him to get away from his marginal hands, which should be a lot of his range. Remember he's not the classic loose passive villain just trying to hit his hand.
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