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1/2 Overbet shove flop or not?? 1/2 Overbet shove flop or not??

02-22-2015 , 11:38 PM
1/2 Live - sat down w/ $150 and was up to $170 after winning a small pot on the first hand. 4 hands later I raised w/ 68ss to $7 in middle position. Small blind ($300) and big blind ($450) call. Flop - As Jh 5s. Check check and then I bet $11. Small blind re-raises and makes it $25 and the big blind calls.

I just played about 2 1/2 hrs with small blind in a tourney and read him to be tight/aggressive and seemed to be forcig the action (he also had just reloaded in the cash game after a bad bluff 2 hands before). Never played with BB.

With $82 in the pot I shoved for $152 more. Small blind folds and big blind tank calls.

I thought my play looked really strong and represented AK AQ AJ and in the small chance a set while trying to get a flush draw to fold. I know with the big blind over-calling the re-raise on the flop that looks strong and I thought my play looked even stronger with that. My gut (for what it's worth) thought the big blind only had one pair with an A.

I didn't feel I had enough to re-raise any other amount.

Thoughts on what you would do with my hand here having a flush draw and my chip stack?
1/2 Overbet shove flop or not?? Quote
02-22-2015 , 11:43 PM
BTW Ac2d called and I bricked the turn and river. Of course I wanted to win, but I would like to know how well or bad people think I played it. Should I have bet more than $11 on the flop? Should I have just called and seen a turn even though I just don't feel like I'll get paid when I hit three handed?
1/2 Overbet shove flop or not?? Quote
02-22-2015 , 11:59 PM
at 1/2 most players are just "ploppers" like this tourney guy and only play their hand. Your play was strong, but he had already RR'd, so probably Mr. Level 1 thinker aint going anywhere.
Your equity was slim(36% or so). You need more outs to make that play profitable long term. Plus, occasionally your FD is going to be dominated more often than you think, so pick a combo draw to make this move.
Seriously, if your bankroll is in any way OK, move up to 2/5 right now. Player aren't that much better - only to the extent that they might respect your RRAI more often.
1/2 Overbet shove flop or not?? Quote
02-23-2015 , 12:15 AM
He had top pair.
And a blocker to top set.
His ace had to be good.


Or he is just playing his hand, and you are rarely getting him to fold top paif in this spot because pairs are hard to make.
FPS. Oh and fold pre. Or at least raise more to get some fold equity...
1/2 Overbet shove flop or not?? Quote
02-23-2015 , 03:23 AM
You are leveling yourself if you think SB is just randomly raising with air here. The fact that he is an aggressive player makes this an even worse spot because he is likely to do so with a flush draw in which case we are either drawing to 6 outs or drawing to runner/runner.

I can possibly get on board with re-raising with KsXs in this spot or JsXs in this spot because of fold equity and because SB may get it in with us with a worse flush draw but 68ss is just not a very good hand on this board. BTW, in general when players check raise flops they are generally not in the mood to fold. Also, raising big without going all in would look stronger to experienced players than simply shipping which often times reps a flush draw in this spot.
1/2 Overbet shove flop or not?? Quote
02-23-2015 , 03:45 AM
Raising 86s in MP is too loose IMO. Flop I would just check back, the Ace smacks their calling ranges and you are in position and get to see a card for free. Personally, I think the re-raise is really spewy, apparently you found both of them at the bottom of their ranges, and one of them still called you. In general don't make big bluffs like this without info.
1/2 Overbet shove flop or not?? Quote
02-23-2015 , 04:17 AM
I think this board hits their range, especially SB, a lot. I don't think check back on flop with position is terrible. I think the jam is pretty spewy. It has terrible reverse implied odds. I think the absolute bottom of one of their calling ranges is a better flush draw. I've learned that moves like these in 1/2 are just super unnecessary.
1/2 Overbet shove flop or not?? Quote
02-23-2015 , 04:31 AM
fold pre, fold flop. shoving is pretty bad here, you likely have very little to no fold equity after he raises your CBET. I know you see him calling with A2 and think "how can he call me with TPNK?" but so many players see a flush draw out there and assume if someone shoves then they are on it. So yeah fold after he RRs flop. Oh and BB will show up with a better flush draw pretty often here and you will be drawing very thin.
1/2 Overbet shove flop or not?? Quote
02-23-2015 , 07:21 AM
To those that answered already, note that the reraiser DID fold, according to OP. The BB called.

It's not a horrible spot for a squeeze play, you were the PFR, and SB has to be concerned with BB's call (making him more likely to fold not closing the action). Since BB flatted the first raise, it's likely that MOST of the time, you get a fold from top pair here. Unfortunately he got sticky with it, and you didn't bink. But not a bad play, should work well over 50% of the time, I would guess.

Note that BB gets sticky with TPNK, take him to valuetown with TPGK all night.
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02-23-2015 , 07:35 AM
It's a terrible hand to ship here because it's unlikely that either of these villains throws away a flush draw. If they have JsXs we are under 4% to win the hand. If they have a higher flush draw with no pair we are still under 20% to win the hand.
1/2 Overbet shove flop or not?? Quote
02-23-2015 , 07:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverLosesAtPoker
It's a terrible hand to ship here because it's unlikely that either of these villains throws away a flush draw. If they have JsXs we are under 4% to win the hand. If they have a higher flush draw with no pair we are still under 20% to win the hand.
Sure, sure, we definitely don't want a call, but you don't squeeze looking for a call.
1/2 Overbet shove flop or not?? Quote
02-23-2015 , 08:13 AM
The best spots to squeeze are ones where it's unlikely a player will call (probably not the case here) and spots where you have decent equity when they do call (definitely not the case here when you consider villains' calling range vs our hand).

This looks like a very impatient play. We are getting good odds to call even given the possibility we might be overflushed if we hit. Just call, see if our equity improves, and take it from there.
1/2 Overbet shove flop or not?? Quote
02-23-2015 , 08:29 AM
Thank you all for the responses. I didn't think about one of them possibly having a higher flush draw so that is def a valid point. I guess his A does act as a blocker and makes it more unlikely that I could have an A, especially if he thinks SB folded one. Part of me still thinks the play wasn't that bad still because I went with my gut and just didn't think either if them were that strong, but at the same time I see some of the points above about in 1/2 it just might be unecessary play a lot of the time.

Several people think that raising 6s8s in MP is too loose. I'm not so sure it's that bad because it helps balance my range and at 1/2 it is very really getting 3-bet behind me this allowing me to still see a relatively cheap flop with it. $7 has been my go-to raise for a while. I like for my raise to be the same with 68 or with AA. Thought on opening with 6s8s in MP and raise sizing in general at 1/2?
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02-23-2015 , 08:38 AM
The other thing I've been thinking about is when I am in the BB's spot. After the majority I the responses above it sounds like most think his call with A2 wasn't that bad. My thought with that is should I be calling down lighter more often in spots similar to this? I guess I just don't see myself hero calling with his hand there because I just don't see that many 1/2 players shoving their flush draws there that often for those stack sizes. Maybe they are and I just haven't realized it or should, but most of the times it seams I would be running into a big A or set protecting against the flush draw. Thoughts on BB's call and thinking there?
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02-23-2015 , 08:45 AM
BB should have folded preflop, then should have folded to the flop raise, then should have folded to the flop ship. BB is horrible and it's pointless to analyze his play except to say that he is not a good player.
1/2 Overbet shove flop or not?? Quote
02-23-2015 , 08:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverLosesAtPoker
The best spots to squeeze are ones where it's unlikely a player will call (probably not the case here)
I'm not really sure we can say that here, but anyway, we can agree to disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverLosesAtPoker
This looks like a very impatient play. We are getting good odds to call even given the possibility we might be overflushed if we hit. Just call, see if our equity improves, and take it from there.
This is not a bad point right here, however, with the possibility of the overflush, I don't mind turning this hand into a bluff either.
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02-23-2015 , 08:59 AM
The V tank called ... that means you had him right on the edge of folding .. in this spot. He probably was mulling over his kicker rather than being dominated by a 'real' hand.

As far as raising, your effective stack reduces greatly in a spot like this one. $170/7 is less than 25bb effective. This limits your ability to maneuver around a pot, especially in 1-2 where you are going to get multiple callers in most cases. Your V may have also considered your all-in as part of his decision, limiting any further 'investment' in the pot.

Granted $7 was my 'go-to' raise at one time as well .. and it did good things for me ... but I (like you) were 'forced' into spots like this quite often that in the long run are marginal depending on the table dynamics. Like I said before, I think you had him on the edge of folding and you made the correct read on the SB.

As long as your total playing style would've included AK (even AJ) in this spot then it's a move you can make, but you have to be up against regs or you will be faced at trying to draw out quite often.

Top off at $200 or $300 so that your effective stack is larger as well. GL
1/2 Overbet shove flop or not?? Quote
02-23-2015 , 09:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverLosesAtPoker
BB should have folded preflop, then should have folded to the flop raise, then should have folded to the flop ship. BB is horrible and it's pointless to analyze his play except to say that he is not a good player.
These players had played together for hours. There's a pretty good chance that Hero had a reputation for opening junk and overplaying it post-flop.

In Villain's shoes you would have believed that Hero's story that he had a set trying to make a flush draw fold?
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02-23-2015 , 09:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by au4all
These players had played together for hours. There's a pretty good chance that Hero had a reputation for opening junk and overplaying it post-flop.

In Villain's shoes you would have believed that Hero's story that he had a set trying to make a flush draw fold?
Actually, he's played less than a full orbit with the big blind and has no reads on the big blind which makes this spot all the worse because we have no clue if big blind is good enough to fold top pair in this spot. Turns out, big blind was at what should have been the very bottom of his range in this spot (perhaps it's not) and he still couldn't find a fold button.

However, you make a valid point about hero's line. If hero is 18 years old his line looks full of crap. If he's 94 years old then I range him on Aces.
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02-23-2015 , 09:53 AM
your stack size is too small to be playing that junk in MP. fold preflop, buy in max and only play those hands in position
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02-24-2015 , 05:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverLosesAtPoker
BB should have folded preflop, then should have folded to the flop raise, then should have folded to the flop ship. BB is horrible and it's pointless to analyze his play except to say that he is not a good player.
I am with you in this..
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