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Old 07-26-2015, 10:34 PM   #176
Richard Parker
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Re: 1/2 - The old argument of why raise so much...

True dat...true dat
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Old 07-26-2015, 11:05 PM   #177
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Re: 1/2 - The old argument of why raise so much...

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Only 1 of those posters is still playing poker so I think there's a clear winner from this ancient discussion.
Lol. That does seem like it would settle the issue.
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Old 07-30-2015, 08:57 PM   #178
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Preflop Bet Sizing, sky's the limit at low stakes

Just curious to learn from the experiences of others, what seems to be the largest amount you raise pre-flop and still get a caller or two?

Obviously table composition matters. A table full of older nits will fold to the standard 3x but at a table full of loose passive drunks 10x could get three or four callers.

In the local casinos where I play, 4-5x is usually my typical sizing. After getting a host of callers time and again, I decided to make my sizing around 6-7x. Not too much changes, the same people that would have called the 4x raise call the 7x raise.Although, some of the better players will fold marginal hands like small pocket pairs and suited connectors, so the cascade effect of callers does not occur quite as often.

The main point being, so long as your bet sizing pre-flop is consistent, should we raise the largest amount possible that still yields the same effect (i.e. heads up/ 3 way pot).

An incurred side effect being that our range is narrow when we are opening to as much 10x preflop. Whereas a smaller raise allows us to widen our range.
Assuming that we can raise 10x and still get a caller or two, is a long ball bet strategy preferable to small ball strategy to exploit the fish?
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Old 07-30-2015, 09:19 PM   #179
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Re: Preflop Bet Sizing, sky's the limit at low stakes

Always better to play HU or 3-way than 4+. Raise bigger and appropriately tighter, and the pot will be the same size but you'll be way better off. We get tons of value doing this.

It's something I need to practice more, I regularly get 3-4 callers when I raise to 18 at 1/2
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Old 07-30-2015, 09:27 PM   #180
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Re: Preflop Bet Sizing, sky's the limit at low stakes

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...-much-1158380/
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Old 07-30-2015, 09:30 PM   #181
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Re: Preflop Bet Sizing, sky's the limit at low stakes

You alluded to it in your post: It's table dependent.

My standard PF raise is $12, dependent on the number of limpers. If $12 isn't getting called, I'm either trying $10-11. If that's not getting called, I'm changing tables. If $12 is getting five callers, I'll try $15 or even up to $20 or so. Just depends on the flow of the game. But I prefer to go HU or 3-way. If I get more than two callers, I'm raising more next time.

Also, try browsing the stickies.
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Old 07-30-2015, 11:05 PM   #182
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Re: Preflop Bet Sizing, sky's the limit at low stakes

Just raise the max that will still get you action. HU or 3 way is obviously ideal but often this is completely out of your control. Just because you raised and got 5 callers doesn't mean your raise size was too small. I'd much rather open raise KK for $12 in a 1/2 game and get 2-5 callers, then go $17 and 75% of the time have it fold around and win myself $3. Sometimes the magic number is $8, other times it is $20+. The only way you can figure this out is through trial and error and experience. Overraising premiums and not getting action is a pretty huge leak that I don't see stated enough in this forum.
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Old 07-30-2015, 11:17 PM   #183
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Re: Preflop Bet Sizing, sky's the limit at low stakes

There are multiple reasons why you can get multiple callers after a seemingly huge raise. Sometimes it's because your opponents are just massive calling stations who will call with their entire limping range. Sometimes it's because one massive calling station calls with garbage but prices everyone else in. Something else to consider is that a lot of passive players will limp very strong hands such as TT,JJ,KQ,AQ, etc that they don't raise for whatever reason, but have no intention of folding for almost any raise size.
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Old 07-31-2015, 11:23 AM   #184
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Re: Preflop Bet Sizing, sky's the limit at low stakes

As others have stated, it's table dependent.

My last 1/3 NL session out I found myself for a while at perhaps the loosest table I've ever played at. Nitty me once raised to $35 (a mere 12xbb) with a $330 stack and found myself in a 4way pot going to the flop. The winning hand was 64o. Standard.

GknowyourtableG
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Old 07-31-2015, 11:25 AM   #185
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Re: Preflop Bet Sizing, sky's the limit at low stakes

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This. Moved to that thread.
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Old 07-31-2015, 12:00 PM   #186
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Re: Preflop Bet Sizing, sky's the limit at low stakes

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Originally Posted by thetruewheel View Post
Always better to play HU or 3-way than 4+. Raise bigger and appropriately tighter, and the pot will be the same size but you'll be way better off. We get tons of value doing this.

It's something I need to practice more, I regularly get 3-4 callers when I raise to 18 at 1/2
Lol, I raised AA to $12 UTG two nights ago and got seven callers (board ran off QsQh9s Ts Jd and I won unimproved, lolol).

Last night I raised to $16 over 5 limpers and got 6 calls (had KK, check/folded Js9d8s flop).

That's unusual, though. Out here in Vegas, the average open is probably still around $9 at a full table in 1/2. But plenty of people are still opening to $22 and then going "whoa, tight table" when everybody folds.
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Old 07-31-2015, 12:44 PM   #187
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Re: 1/2 - The old argument of why raise so much...

Problem with AA is that most players in LLSNL have tough time folding it, so it becomes a rather big ROI hand in situations with more players.

Because of that, often people try to manipulate situations by lowering number of players at cost of sacrificing EV.
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Old 09-11-2015, 11:20 AM   #188
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Standardizing PFR???

I play $1/$2 live usually Fridays and Saturdays. I play a TAG style and do move to a LAG style once comfortable at the table. Lately I have had problems playing tables where everyone limps or calls a raise going to a 4 or 5 way pot and me having to fold my premium hands to donkey crap. So Im kinda thinking my PFR's are too small.

I was wondering if standardizing my PFR to a $20 raise instead of the normal $12 or $15 would be effective in weeding out the BS hands that have potential to crack my premium hands. Also my though process is that you would never know if I were raising $20 with pocket 5's, Axs or AA,KK...Would this make me less predictable or would this simply invite the aggrotard to call in a bloated pot with crap and crush me?

I kinda feel like a $12 raise invites trouble on a LAG table when you have big pairs cause you always get multiway and wet flops..

Also why do we raise pre flop? Is it more for value or is it to weed out and isolate or both?
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Old 09-11-2015, 11:35 AM   #189
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Re: Standardizing PFR???

Standardizing your raise size to become "unreadable" is overrated, and ultimately pointless in my opinion. You want to raise to the amount that gets you heads-up or at most 3-way heading into the flop. That number changes from table to table, from villain to villain, and from hand to hand as your image evolves.

Locking yourself in to a standard raise size makes YOU exploitable, especially if that raise size is larger.

And we raise pre-flop for value. Always for value. We 3-bet as a bluff.
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Old 09-11-2015, 11:49 AM   #190
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Re: Standardizing PFR???

Depends on how deep you/the table is. But that said, a $12-15 raise is fine even when the trashy hands are in and should be enough to build a big pot for when you do hit your hands to compensate for the times you miss and end up having to c/f. If they're all preflop stations I'm guessing they aren't folding the 2nd best hand on the flop so make sure you get all the monz when you do hit. It's up to you to get the most value post flop.

This looks a lot like results based thinking. Unless you're confident with your post flop ability I really don't recommend switching to LAG. If the games are really stationy you should be just playing ahead of their ranges and value bet the **** out of everything you hit.
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Old 09-11-2015, 12:09 PM   #191
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Re: Standardizing PFR???

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This looks a lot like results based thinking.
Correct, I seem to remember the bad suck outs more than the value I have won..But dont we all remember the bad beats..lol
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Old 09-11-2015, 01:25 PM   #192
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Re: Standardizing PFR???

At 1/2 and 1/3 preflop sizes are more about adjusting to the table then anything. I have had opening sizes anywhere from $5 to $25 at 1/2 depending on how tight/loose the table was. That is a range of 2 and 1/2 to 12 and 1/2 big blinds, which is all over the place. You just have to find what works at that table at that time.

2/5 seems to have more consistent raising. First in is $15-$25 depending on the table and average stack depths.

Keep in mind that the bigger your opening raises have to be, the tighter your range has to be. Because you are risking more of your stack preflop, you won't be able to play as many low pairs/suited connectors/ace-rag suited type hands that need a high SPR to be profitable. This means your range will actually be more predictable at tables that require a high open to limit callers. These tables are still highly profitable because somebody calling your raise to $25 with a $100 stack is going to lose his entire stack more often then you will double him up, but you won't be able to c-bet or bluff much. You are forced into a straight TAG game.
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Old 09-11-2015, 04:08 PM   #193
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Re: Standardizing PFR???

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Originally Posted by SpexDome View Post

And we raise pre-flop for value. Always for value. We 3-bet as a bluff.
I hope that anyone reading the above knows to ignore it.
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Old 09-11-2015, 04:15 PM   #194
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Re: Standardizing PFR???

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I hope that anyone reading the above knows to ignore it.


Do you do a lot of open-raise bluffing pre-flop? If you're going to bluff, or semi-bluff pre-flop, you're probably doing it sometime after the pot has been raised.

If we're raising pre-flop it's because A) we have the best hand or B) we have favorable conditions to steal post-flop. In B, our pre-flop raise is meant to be called. It's to add money to the pot to increase the value we make later either by making a hand, or by stealing a pot post flop.

At least when I pick on other people's posts, I add something related to poker to support my argument.
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Old 09-11-2015, 04:24 PM   #195
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Re: Standardizing PFR???

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Originally Posted by SpexDome View Post

At least when I pick on other people's posts, I add something related to poker to support my argument.
When extreme and/or silly claims are made, it"s not up to the listener to do the work to refute them. It's on the claimant to provide proof for these claims.
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Old 09-11-2015, 04:48 PM   #196
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Re: Standardizing PFR???

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When extreme and/or silly claims are made, it"s not up to the listener to do the work to refute them. It's on the claimant to provide proof for these claims.
So it's on you now to explain your extremely silly position to ignore advice that says: Raise for value pre-flop
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Old 09-11-2015, 04:54 PM   #197
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Re: Standardizing PFR???

I'm pretty sure what SpexDome meant here is not that we should only 3-bet as a bluff, but that if we are going to bluff PF, it should be with a 3-bet, not an open. I'm pretty sure that he'd agree that 3-betting for value is fine, it's just that opening (even over limpers) with trash is lighting money on fire.

All that said, we have a "best of LLSNL thread" about this ("why raise so much"), so ima move this discussion there.
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Old 09-11-2015, 05:07 PM   #198
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Re: Standardizing PFR???

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Originally Posted by Garick View Post
I'm pretty sure what SpexDome meant here is not that we should only 3-bet as a bluff, but that if we are going to bluff PF, it should be with a 3-bet, not an open. I'm pretty sure that he'd agree that 3-betting for value is fine, it's just that opening (even over limpers) with trash is lighting money on fire.

All that said, we have a "best of LLSNL thread" about this ("why raise so much"), so ima move this discussion there.
Spex is wrong, though, and not just on the only raise for value preflop claim.

Raising ore as a semi bluff or a bluff is completely standard unless you're playing pure live nit "imma pound it for a zillion bbs with QQ+ and AK when I'm feeling balla."
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Old 09-11-2015, 05:10 PM   #199
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Re: 1/2 - The old argument of why raise so much...

That's definitely a discussion worth having. i just wanted to make sure we didn't get into a talking past each other argument when Dr.C thought Spex's thesis was never to 3-bet for value.
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Old 09-11-2015, 05:11 PM   #200
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Re: 1/2 - The old argument of why raise so much...

There is no post flop skill edge that makes up for calling large pre flop raises with dominated hands with 100bb stacks Period. The deeper we get the more I may consider raising smaller depending on our opponents skill and post flop aggressiveness.

Think of all the skalansky dollars we are accumulating by raising large and being called by worse. Then we can treat TP like the nuts with shallow stacks and low SPRs.
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