It's either episode 70 or 37 of deuces cracked with Limon where he say's he varies his bet sizing depending on the table. He says most of the time the players are just so dumb to realize what is going on that you can get away with raising your premiums an insane amount and they will pay off. Personally in my game I used to see it a ton. Make AA 9x and get 2-3 callers. I went back to the casino recently and noticed it slowed down a little. Raises were smaller and less callers... Until I went the other night. Oh boy... get one crazy guy at the table and people start opening up for 10x+ and getting called in 4-5 spots. Even after crazy guy left people were still opening up huge. I had to change my game from balanced to wait for the nuts. It's an adjustment you make. I prefer the balanced kind of game, I find it more fun, but I also won't say that there is only one way to play the game and that opening up premiums for 8x will never work and people will catch on. So what if the 1 good player at the table knows what you are doing. You guys are more than likely avoiding each other anyways. The other 8 guys are going to continue to pay off.

As others have said, the biggest problem for me with making large preflop raises, is that it forces me to make large commitment decisions with fewer streets of information... A few quick examples from my local 1/2 game:

- Raise to 15 utg with two red kings, get 4 callers. Flop comes down with three middle connecting cards and two spades. SB overbet shoves his remaining stack of $135... Now, I have to decide whether this guy is overplaying a weak made hand, is trying to get value from a strong made hand, or has a monster draw... Oh, and I still have two players behind me that might have hit something big on such a scary flop... If I raise smaller pre, sb probably makes a smaller donk bet and I can try to call one street and see what the players behind me do and how they react to the turn.

UTG and I make it 15 to go with JJ, folds to BB (who just sat down) who makes it 45. Now, it's back to me and with effective stacks of 300, I'm not really getting setmining odds, but I hate to throw away JJ preflop.. so, do I click it back, fold, ship, flat and call one street if no overcards come? If I made it 8 instead, the 3 bet is more like 25 and I can easily call and play some post flop poker.

I guess my main question is, we all laugh at "Lol fish who lost 100bbs with an overpair," but (a) don't big raises almost set up pot sizes and scenarios where we almost have to get stacks in with overpairs because of SPR and (b) if we're setting up situations where we'll be getting a significant amount of money in with overpairs, are the "donks" really making a huge mistake if they call a big raise pf but only stack off if they flop something that beats top pair or an overpair?

IME the people who are usually calling these bets consistently and with junk are horrible poker players, and we are generally playing one street poker with them. Wait for nuts > get paid.

Great thread, too bad I am joining late. I vary my raise size based on at least 4 variables. You can pay attention to my bet sizing, but that will not help you put me on a hand. I could raise with TT and 5 minutes later I can guarantee that a TT will be a different sized bet.

My variables.

1) the table. I pay attention and want to isolate the worst player with the largest possible bet with premium hands. I once played at a table where I could raise to 38BB once every 2 hours and one guy would call. In that situation I cbet 100% and he folded. He would not call 40 BB. If I want to set mine or play suited connecters (pretty much the same thing) at some tables a 3xbb makes people think I have a premium hand but I will get 6 callers anyway - giving me immediate odds and fantastic implied odds.

2) Position. I recognize the value of position and make raises bigger in position than out of position. The first variable is table, this variable mixes it up. So JJ on the button gets a bigger raise than JJ UTG. I have made monster raises into a multiway pot with QJs because I knew that anyone limping would have raised a better hand, my hand strength is hidden because the monster raise implies a polarized range like small or large pocket pair. And with position, I will take most pots (that end up heads up and both people miss) I can represent A or K high boards and clean up with J or Q high boards. Dont forget about straights and flushes. I would never make this play UTG. After this, I can bet huge with AA on the button and no one will think twice about it. I can also min raise AA UTG and get a 3 bet at some tables. OOP I do not mind playing premium hands for smaller pots because I just don't know who is interested in the hand yet. My ultimate goal is to get one person allin against me and position means nothing at that point.

3) Stack size. I understand implied odds and the odds of flopping______ So I make sure that if you call me with a drawing hand and I have a premium hand, you are making a mistake. I also make sure that if you are gonna stack of with TPGK, I am gonna have implied odds to out draw you. I am constantly doing math.

4) Hand strength. Since this is my last variable, good luck guessing my hand strength based on the size of my bet. Still my goal is to get as much money in as possible with as few players as possible with premium hands. If I can also see a few non premium hands with the correct odds, I will do so.

5) Balance. If you are playing level 2 against me, I might occasionally jump up to level 3 and start playing a meta game. My game is designed to invite you to make a mistake.


People are taught to make standard raises because for most people that is excellent advice. If someone makes raises based on hand strength, you can figure them out. But if hand strength is one of 5 variables, good luck figuring out a hand.

The thing to remember is that you only see 15 to 20% of my hands, so it would take days to figure out my system. Did I raise that to $20 because I had AA or because I had the button? You saw me raise to $6 once. What was my position then? Did you notice that all my bet sizes are half as much as they were then that drunk cowboy was on my right? Did you notice that I contracted my range to only AA when the cute girl sat down at the bar and my attention was diverted?

Put in enough variables that no one can possible figure out what you have and mathematically take advantage of every situation.

This is one great poker thread for someone looking for advice on 1-2 play. Glad I found it. Thanks a lot guys!!

I think your comment sums up the crux of the debate... If our range is generally better than their range of hands, we want to get raise big in order to get them to put $ in when they are behind...

But, if we also believe that we are better players than they are (and therefore, we'll make better decisions than they will), aren't there certain reasons why it would be more beneficial to keep the pot a little smaller preflop, allow us to play the hand out across more than 1 street, and give us more opportunities to make good decisions, and the bad players more opportunities to make mistakes?

Wow. I think this does illustrate well that just balancing 10% of hands will have little affect. But there are two things I would also consider:

1) Shouldn't we be balancing our play to open fold at least 30% of our medium strength hands? Perhaps I'm just not good enough to play those hands profitably from OOP, but I would really fold most of the hands in the medium-strength list when OOP at an aggressive table. (Then again, typical raises at my tables are 5-10 BB, so there is a greater disincentive to play these hands). When we do play these medium-strength hands, the simple fact that they are even in our range serves to balance our play even when we open to the same amount every time. If we begin with a range that is balanced, say 2/3 premiums, 1/3 mediums, and then balance that by raising larger amounts for 90% of the premiums and 10% of the mediums, I would think the two types of balancing combined would make ranging us very difficult for all but the most astute opponents.

2) Doesn't our ability to outplay opponents postflop decrease when we are in a multiway pot? If a 3-4x BB open raise gets us heads-up with these hands, it is great news, but if we need to open a larger amount to get HU, it gives us even more reason to stick to premiums from EP IMHO.

This is an argument on old thinking vs new thinking. I ask myself all the time when idiots raise huge oop. I say "this guy is stuck in 2007".

So find the guys who are stuck in that year and value bet the crap out of them with your premiums for stupid amounts preflop.

No the guys raising huge are stuck in 2007. The rake is too high to be raising 10x, 7/8x. Raise a normal amount pot is bigger. Otf you get 2 callers one guy with tp other guy with a draw. You shove they pay you off. Overpairs are easy to play.

You don't get top 2% of hands enough to raise that big. You need deception with the top of our range.

Its basically boils down to the old argument raise as much as they will call. The thinking is outdated. You can't base your game around that.

"Raise for favorable situations with decent spr's to outplay our villains".

That's the new thinking. "And clearly on this forum we are divided on which argument is best".

100% yes. Perhaps it's the lag in me starting to come out, but when I sit down at tables without a defined captain, I try to make sure I am the one defining pf raise sizes. I will usually wait at least a few orbits to make any waves, but I kind of like something around $15 from late position. The first time I do this, I usually have a TPTK (AT+, 99+) that wants to get heads up, and it usually works to drive out 3-5 limpers and get 1-2 callers because "that guy raised, holy crap!" After a few of these, when the table begins getting suspicious, I mix in some SCs and can often get several callers, which is just what I want for a nice drawing hand in position.

It can be really hard for players to read this, because I may raise to $15 in a hand with 2 limpers when I have a premium hand, and then raise a drawing hand to $15 when there are 5 limpers. Anyone watching will probably think I am not adjusting my raise sizes depending on number of limpers, but I am actually constantly adjusting to get the end result I want. Often I will need to increase my raise sizes as the table reacts to my frequent raises, and as a result, I tighten up my raising range. However, I don't think it's possible for villains to pick up on all the variables playing in to my decisions, as there are just too many levels of math and psychology to be readable by anyone not reading this post. But I whole-heartedly agree that if you are just raising to $7 with drawing hands and $15 with premiums, most villains will begin 3betting you light. If they don't, you are at a very profitable table, so keep it up, and get ready to play until you have all the money at the table in your stack.

OOP, I play much more nitty, and only like opening with QQ+ and AK. I know limping is considered a deadly sin, but I'd rather hide in the weeds at a table that's not too aggressive when I am OOP with weaker suited aces, small-medium pocket pairs and a limited amount of SCs. One nice side effect is that good players notice this, so when I do come out strong from EP, I can usually watch the good players insta-muck and I am only playing OOP vs. the fish, some of whom have had it with me by now and decide that since they FINALLY have position on me they are going to 3Bet their QJs - oops.

I know that some better players can play a much wider range profitably from EP, but I really like position. I guess I do sacrifice some value when I open KK for $15 utg, get 5 callers and have to fold on the flop, but I have gotten very used to throwing these hands away when facing strong action OOP in multi-way pots. I am good at playing SCs in position, and can usually take down enough decent-sized pots with well-sized Cbets, or play for stacks when I hit a hidden monster, so I think it makes up for having to occassionally fold a premium pair on the flop when things don't work out. I think the MOST important thing in determining preflop raise sizing is what you plan to do post-flop, and figuring out what type of raise pre suits your postflop style.

For as much as you quote/love Limon, you and him sure do see it differently on this one.

My argument from the beginning is that there are times for 8x and times for 4x balancing. If you are on a table and people are calling your raises for 8x with worse, yet you are not raising that much, your are leaving money on the table. That's the last IMA say bout that.

Circumstances vary by the composition of players at a particular table.

Instead of prescribing raising tactics out of context, what about just applying the skill to playing at the level above your opponent(s)?

That, along with table characteristics, guide the proper raising size in EP, MP, etc postions to get the right bet sizing and desired value.

Yes?

No.

There are two things.

1. I can see no justification whatsoever for discussing preflop raise size independently of your opening range. It is like starting a hand history by saying, "So I was dealt the king of diamonds..." You're literally leaving out half the relevant information (actually, 2/3, because stack size matters as much as the cards you get.

2. This idea that we should reinvent our range and raise sizing every night is a little extreme. OBVIOUSLY, any player with any serious experience should have a default EP raising strategy from which he varies based on conditions at the table.

Fixed.
At the $1/$2 games I play at, you can pot the nuts and half/pot your bluffs 10 hands in a row and most of the players wouldn't even take note of it.

At total donktard tables, sizing bets based on strength outweighs balancing imo. If no one is noticing, or caring to notice, how fast you play strong hands or how slow you play air/draws, then why bother balancing?

if they call 20 BB pre to play fit/fold

by all means, go ahead and raise 20 BB or just get it in

This is such an insanely simple piece of advice but it's really stuck in my head since I first read it. I'm trying to go from an above average tourney player to a cash player, so in earlier days, when I'd raise to $8 with AK or whatever and get called by 4 people I would be annoyed. "This wouldn't happen in tourneys" and "If I miss the flop I can't continue with 5 other people in the hand" are things that would pop in my mind. But now if I feel that 5 people will call a raise to $8 I'll just make it $16 or so, knowing 1 or 2 will call with worse anyway, I'll have the best hand preflop, and hopefully it holds vs my opponent's garbage. And if I think they'll call more with worse I'll just raise more! It's so simple but has really change my preflop cash game mind set.

I've also applied this to post flop play. I can't remember where on 2p2 I read it but a guy broke down a whole hand about how much to bet vs pot and how you could really profit so much more once you realize guys aren't always looking at your bet vs the size of the pot. In a $30 pot with a monster I previously would always be betting around $15, hoping to induce action and get more calls. Now against the crazies I'll just go ahead and bet the $30. The point of his post was now the pot on the turn is $90 as opposed to $60, and you can go ahead and bet $80 on the turn where you probably would have bet $30 into $60 previously, and so on.

I flopped a set yesterday with TT on a T 8 7 board and just fired out $15 into $20, got called by 1 player, and fired $40 into $50 on the blank turn, whereas I probably would have been betting much smaller before I thought about some of this advice. I got called again and, because I had built the pot, was able to shove the A river rather than have to put some sort of value bet in. The kid snap folded and said "missed my gutshot." If you have people who are going to chase gutshots for $40 to win $90 with 1 card to come, you might as well just be betting big the whole way.

I guess my point is "value bet" often conjures up thoughts of a small, calculated bet with a mediocre hand that will get called by a worse hand. But sometimes a value bet can just be the size of the pot with a big hand against a poor player who has a poor hand. Very simple advice for some people who tend to over-analyze simple situations like myself, I think it can help.

I completely agree. In low-stakes live play, range balancing is pointless. No one sees you play enough hands to figure out whether your ranges are balanced or unbalanced.

Price your bets on SPR and the calling ranges and fit/fold tendencies of the table. Advertise or ham it up as needed to adjust to your ideal image. Simple as that.

Is it? So, if our table is uber tight one night, and dripping with maniacs the next, we should not adjust our raise sizes? What if we have AA on the button vs a nit in the BB, or AA on the button versus a flopmonkey?

I know a guy that will straddle the button in $1/2, and call off as much as $40 with suited two gappers, because we have a straight flush jackpot at a certain room. If he's on the button, and I have a big hand, I am definitely not raising the same amount as if I had a TAG in the same position.

I suggest that we should raise based upon the stack sizes and preflop/flop calling tendencies of our opponents.

If I know a cbet will work 90% of the time against one player, I will raise to the very limits of his range and plan to cbet him. If I know one player loves seeing flops, but won't call more than $7 without a real hand, I will adjust my bet size based upon whether I have a real hand or not.

In any given $1-2 game, I might openraise $6 one hand, $35 another, all based on the players at my table and my current image. I think we leave a LOT of money on the table if we are not dynamic like this.

The more I think about this, the more I feel the need to talk more about it.

First off, I respect your experience mpethybridge, so please don't misunderstand my disagreement as in any way undermining your knowledge. But the idea of "I always openraise AK xbb" makes so little sense to me.

Why do we even bother sizing up players as they sit down, working to learn their ranges, identifying players on tilt, etc., if we don't plan to adjust our strategy accordingly? If a locksmith raises 5x UTG, and I hold AK OTB, I might flat. If a maniac does the same thing, I might 3bet to 20x, or even more. If the effective stack is deep, or short, I will adjust accordingly.

If we are not doing this, then we are completely ignoring all the information available at the table in favor of a prearranged strategy. I am not saying we shouldn't have guidelines, but how often is any particular situation "standard"? If you deal the same cards in the same position to nine different players at ten different tables, you will get ten different hand results. Even if you take the same players, in the same positions, with the same hands, you'll get different results, based on how action has recently been flowing, who's on monkey tilt, who is in shutdown mode, etc. Which of those outcomes are "standard" and which are not? Who can say? And, since no one can definitively say what's "standard", since no two tables are alike, then how can we expect that a particular line that was optimal last night is going to be optimal tonight?

We have to be dynamic! Yes, it's harder than memorizing standard lines. But a 2bb adjustment in a preflop raise amount makes an 18bb difference on the river, if we are PSBing the whole way...if we are not adjusting our openraises optimally, we could be leaving that 18bb on the table. Considering that a 10bb/hour is a great win rate, an 18bb swing is a pretty big deal.

OK, rant over, sorry (and yes mpethy, I know you acknowledged that you make adjustments, I think we just approach it all differently)

My $2/5 game is full of bad nits who limp and then fold for $20.

I have to play like 25/18 small-ball LAG to grind out a profit.

I'd like this thread to represent "typical" hands and games.

I've never played in a 2/5nl game that players were fearful or not calling $20 preflop raises. A $20 preflop raise in 2/5nl is regarded as a minor raise that rec fish will call with a 40% range and not even blink.

Your game sounds like it's not indicative of a normal 2/5nl game.

20 and 25 dollar raises are typical for 2/5 anything higher is only going to be a nit raising, people do fold to raises and they don't always play 40% vpip.

That actually sounds like it would be the sort of game you might encounter in a mid-week daytime game with a bunch of nitty regulars who respect raises. It should be within the range of typical games one might encounter.

No, all types of players raise ******ed amounts in 2/5nl for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes, the table opens up and the gambool is contagious or people start tilting or the drinks are flowing or the natural progression of the table is such that $30, $35, and even $40 raises become common. Or thinking players try to isolate the calling station and knows that if they raise $45 everyone else folds and the station calls. Basically, there are a variety of reasons why raise amounts can grow beyond $25

And i'm not saying people always play 40% vpip. I'm saying that there are plenty of rec fish or donks that think absolutely nothing of calling a big raise because they are sitting on $800, you "only" raised $40 and they have 69s and they love to play 69s because its their favorite hand.

I think we lose value when we start thinking in rigid terms about what players will and will not call. We have to be fluid and constantly testing the table limits.

I will often sit in an ABC 2/5nl game and I notice that every preflop raise is $20 - $25. Then I raise $35 and the table gives me the weird "don't you know we only raise $25" look. They all fold, next time, I raise $35 again, they all fold. Next time I raise $35 and THEN 3 players call me. Next thing you know, the table raise level has risen to $30/$35. Then I get a big hand and raise $40 and I get 1-2 callers thinking i'm "stealing" because i've been raising so much or they feel its their duty to "teach me a lesson", etc. etc.

I'm a big fan of giving our villains an opportunity to make mistakes. And if we are too rigid in our thinking (especially in regards to preflop raises) then we lose a ton of value.

Or put another way. If you aren't raising $35+, how do you know your villains won't call $35+. And if they aren't calling $35+, how can you use that to your advantage? And after betting $35+ a few times, what does that do to the table dynamic?